Kubota Charging system from scratch

[coachgeo]

My engine has no charging system. It used the truck to charge the batt. I guess.

Anyway.... so what are the options and why is it best

1. Add an alternator and bracket, belt, and voltage regulator?
2. Fit in some kind of Stator and regulator-rectifier ?
3. ????

Which would be end up as less weight overall?

bike- 97 Tiger. No LED's " yet " maybe in future. Electric Start.

[pietenpol2002]

How many amps do you need?

[coachgeo]

How many amps do you need?

Enough-- seriously... I got no clue.

Standard head light and turn signal load from era of 1997 bikes. Eventually heated gloves or grips and jacket cause I got ZERO body fat, so warmth is a big one for me to get most use of the bike. Gps, phone charger, etc. Typical stuff for an Adventure bike intended to be rode like one would say a Track 800.

Understand that it might be wiser to plan on LED's and switch to those before adding the heavy load stuff like the heated items.

[coachgeo]

Looks like I might have a good deal for a 14amp Stator along with Regulator/Rectifier off a Kubota..... will that be enough amps? I apologize for not knowing my electrical math.

Here is some input I got but it talks in Watts

One of the disadvantages of a single-cylinder motorcycle like the Suzuki DR650 (blog) is the relatively weak alternator output.

The DR650's alternator is rated at a wimpy 200 Watts at 5,000 RPM.

Since 5,000 RPM is rarely achieved in normal street/trail riding (although without a tachometer, who knows?), figure on less than 200 Watts most of the time.

So let's do a bit of calculating. As mentioned in the Clearwater Krista LED lights (review), the DR650's headlight uses 55 Watts on low beam and 60 Watts on high.

The brake/tail light draws 21 Watts and the pair of Krista lights use up to 72 Watts on full power. Figure another 5W for the license plate light and 6W for the instrument lights.

Add in the 35W or so to run the ignition and that puts us around 195 Watts.

To reduce current draw slightly, an "SMT Tower" LED 1147 replacement was installed (from the article More LED Brake Lights and Tail Lights).

We also have an HID low/high beam headlight kit for the DR650 ready to install; it draws just 35 Watts, compared to the stock halogen headlight at 55/60W. When you only have 200 Watts to play with, every Watt counts!

Also by way of comparison, the BMW R 1200 GS (report) has a massive 720W output (14Ah battery) and the BMW K 1600 GTL (report) alternator puts out 580W (19Ah battery).

[coachgeo]

14amp at 12v according to an online calculator works out at 168 watts.

[coachgeo]

found little more info

KTM 1190 Adventure specs
Has anyone heard (reliably) what the stator output will be on this bike? I read somewhere that it would be around 400-450 watts, which seems terribly low for a premium adventure bike. The BMW GS1200 and Triumph Tiger 800 each produce 720 watts, while the Triumph Explorer cranks out 920 watts.

Hell, my 2006 Tiger 955 pukes up 480 watts, which with heated gloves, jacket liner and grips, pushes that poor stator to the limit

If I'm going to lay out the cabbage for KTM's premium bike, I would like to have the ability to mount a couple of spot-beams as well as fire up some heated liners and gloves - it is an Adventure Bike, right?

and some more specific info to the Tiger of my era

your system has a 28 amp alternator which equals 336 watts

your two headlights alone are drawing 110 watts on low beam
if you add two aux 55watt lights you are now using 220 watts out of 336 just to see
heated grips draw about 30 watts of power on average
now you are at 250 watts of power usage
your 1157 taillight buls draw 27 watts each
now you are at 304 watts
and don't forget you have a fuel pump that is drawing power as well as the ecu to feed , so you are pretty well using everything you got and then some

you can get away with it depending on circumstances , ie don't spend a lot of time at low rpm's with everything on sucking power . and maybe forgo the heated grips if you are running the lights .

high output led aux lights might be a better solution

so minus 35watt for ignition needs.... hmm. Minus 15watt or so for going to LED headlight...... hmmmm?

Wonder if one could put one of the Kubota Stators on both Fan side and flywheel side.... Assuming they are designed to go behind flywheel or fan or both??

To get needed watts needed; starting to look like will have to go with traditional kubota style alternator around 40 amp minimum. Math seems to show that even double up on the Stator if that is even possible would not work? Am I missing something?

[tappy]

The charging system doesn't charge at 12V (and indeed at 12V the battery would be considered flat) - 13.2 is a better estimate.
13.2V x 14A is 184W. BUT, it'll only be able to output that above a certain rpm. Most bikes max output is above 5k rpm, but an alternator designed for 3600rpm diesel will have max output at much lower rpm - you should be able to get a spec for it.

H4 Headlights are 55/60W, but HIDs are indeed 35W. Twin headlights would therefore use 70W.
HID spotlights are similar.
Heated grips come in various guises, but the 5A rating is usually just for initial switch-on, after which 2A (24W) is closer to the mark.

Tail-lights are NOT 21W, they're 5W. It's the brake-light elements in them that are 21W, and they're used intermittently. So 2 x 5W permantent, plus 21W intermittently I'd assume 25W for the lot. Or you could use LED replacement bulbs - probably about 1W each, but you need to get good ones - cheap ones suffer from vibration. Did anyone mention a diesel engine?

Indicators are 21W per bulb, about 50% duty cycle, so call it 21W the pair. BUT, they're not switched on very often so the battery will supply the juice and then recover. LED indicators - like LED tail/brake lights - will use far less power, but only if connectors to a suitable flasher unit rather than wired with resistors in parallel as many people do (really no need).

The various fuel solenoids etc required by a diesel engine might take 4 or 5W. You'll have no electric fuel pump or ignition to worry about.

Electrically powered cooling fans are typically 5 to 10A - 60 to 120W, but I'm not sure why you'd need one as the Kubota fans seem to be direct or wax-clutch belt drive off the engine.

Idiot lights can be LED (assume less than 1W for all of them), and speedo / tacho illumination tend to be 2 to 4 x 2W bulbs - assume 8W. You could probably use LED replacements for these too, at less than 1W for the lot.

Satnav / phone etc will take 5W each.


SOOO
Option #1:
2x60W headlights = 120W
2x5/21W tail/brake lights = 25W
21W indicators x occasional use = 5W
10W for engine solenoids etc = 10W
4 x 2W for speedo illumination = 8W
1W for LED idiot lights = 1W
Heated grips = 25W
2x5W satnav & phone = 10W
2x35W spot lights = 70W
Total = 271W

Option #2
2x35W HID headlights = 70W
2xLED tail/brake lights = 2W
LED indicators x occasional use = 1W
Engine solenoids = 10W
LED speedo illumination = 1W
LED Idiot lights = 1W
Heated grips = 25W
Satnav / phone = 10W
2x35W spotlights = 70W
Total = 190W.

Sooo, even with LEDs for everything that you can, those twin headlights, twin spotlights and heated grips are using everything the 14A alternator can give you, and depending on the engine speed, possibly more.

Without the spotlights you'd probably be fine. LED spot lights are becoming more efficient and you could consider those - at about 5W each they'd bring the total power to 120W, making the 14A alternator viable, but they're probably quite expensive and I'm not sure how reliable they are.

I'd avoid using a separate alternator as a drive-belt tensioner. The belt loads will be far higher than the alternator is designed for. Yes, the bearings can be replaced cheaply, but at the side of an unlit road on a rainy winter's night it might seem like false economy. Depends what kind of adventure you're looking for! No point having all your lights and sat-nav if you don't have the reliability. Better bet might be to fit a belt tensioner, and then use that to drive an alternator.

Only other point to mention is that 184W is 0.25hp. Regardless of the size of alternator you use, if you're using that much electrical power then you're using valuable horsepower!

[coachgeo]

Thanks for the input.

The 14A stator is cost of shipping. Have to buy Reg/Rec. $50??
The 24 amp alternator seems to run around $130 w/shipping
the 40 amp alt. ................................ $150 w/ship
the 60 amp alt ................................. $170 w/ship
make brackets put pulley on engine (fan side), match pulley sizes etc. and belt. bike will NOT have a fan on engine. Prob. elec. on radiator? So belt would be to drive only the alt. So your suggestion a tensioner should be added as well of go that route?

I'm not sure if the Alt. come with Vlt. regulators installed..... hate to do ASSume..... but assume they do. would of course verify if I ordered one.

[tappy]

An alternator that fits into the flywheel will indeed need a regulator rectifier. A new one for a motorcycle would be around GBP70 here in the UK. You could pick up a cheap 3-phase japanese one from a breakers, but if the Kubota alternator is single phase then that'd be harder to find (tho' they do exist).

If you buy a 20, 40 or 60A alternator that's belt driven then it will almost certainly have the reg-rec integral to it.

[Mouse]

I use a Suzuki charger with a pulley brazed / welded to the output flange.

35A which is almost 500W.
Approx. £25 so cheap and plentiful on the 2nd hand market.


They need two wires one to the battery and one to the ignition supply.

[coachgeo]

I use a Suzuki charger with a pulley brazed / welded to the output flange.

35A which is almost 500W.
Approx. £25 so cheap and plentiful on the 2nd hand market.


They need two wires one to the battery and one to the ignition supply.

Mouse..... I assume from another's comments that is a Suzukie motorcycle alt. and not a Suzukie car alt. Took gamble and bought Motorcycle one off ebay, pointed out to me by Petenpol. It's unknown condition.....

The one on ebay has a gear attached. Does it pull off or did you cut it off orr?

Also the Katana 600 it comes from runs at a much higher RPM. Did you calculate the size of your pulley to keep the RPM's of the alternator similar?

Looks like an O-Ring on Alt. Does the Alt need a cap made to snap over the end to keep junk and water out?

Is it a Generator or Alternator thus needing something else to wire it up? Dc to Ac converter?

[Mouse]

Mouse..... I assume from another's comments that is a Suzukie motorcycle alt. and not a Suzukie car alt. Took gamble and bought Motorcycle one off ebay, pointed out to me by Petenpol. It's unknown condition.....

Yea, its from the larger GSX bikes. All the same as far as I can tell. I should have said but was a bit hung over when I wrote that.

The one on ebay has a gear attached. Does it pull off or did you cut it off orr?

There is a cush-drive under the sprocket and that is held onto the alternator with a nut and taper shaft. See the photos....

Is it a Generator or Alternator thus needing something else to wire it up? Dc to Ac converter?

.
It is an alternator with integral rectifier and regulator. It is also easy to wire up as the thicker wire goes to the battery and the thinner goes to switched ignition.

Also the Katana 600 it comes from runs at a much higher RPM. Did you calculate the size of your pulley to keep the RPM's of the alternatorimilar?

I geared mine to somewhere between 2-3:1 because I had pulleys for that. I didn't aim to get it to be spinning as fast it would be in the bike and it worked with no problems. Also note that most petrol bikes don't spend much time at the top of their RPM range so I don't think there is much need to get the extra speed.

Looks like an O-Ring on Alt. Does the Alt need a cap made to snap over the end to keep junk and water out?

Yea, the oil ring is because the gear end of the alternator is inside the bike engine and needs the seal. I never bothered to waterproof any of it because the alternator is external to the engine and is generally exposed to water / salt and grit as standard. It is however behind the engine which would shield it a bit. The shaft bearing has double lip seals so they will keep the water out.

This is the back of the cushdrive and a small pully ( I think from a car alternator) with the centre hole enlarged to fit over the centre.


Then simply braze or weld it on.




Make your own mind up how to tension the belt. This is how I did it on the V twin but on the current Kubota Z482 I use a sliding idler wheel. (Note that the minimum radius a belt will work with is larger for a back side tensioner.)
Just be sure that the pullies are in alignment and there is sufficient adjustment for the belt to wear a bit. I found my local industrial bearing and pulley supplier helped me to select the right belt. I then bought spares from ebay

[Eddy Wane]

Just seen a John Deere Gator alternator on eBay (US). Kicks out 60 amps and currenetly at $87. They look qite small.

[Curtis in Texas]

Got a solution figured out George. Going to take the Triumph Alternator and removed the gear drive Then I took the little idler pulley off the Kubota engine and pressed out it''s bearing.

With me so far?

Tomorrow I'm going to take the tapered drive hub, the one on the left,


and turn it down on my lathe to where it will be the same size or slightly larger than the outer dimensions of the idler pulley bearing I pressed out.
Then I'm going to sweat fit the cut down tapered drive hub into the pulley where the bearing was.
As in Heat up the pulley and freeze the hub. Press them together and presto, instant drive pulley.

Then replace the keeper clip.
(Starter ring gears are put on flywheels the same way!)

If it looks like it will work itself loose sometime later, I'll weld it in with my MIG!

Then all I have to do is make a bracket to mount the alternator onto the engine and maybe I can figure out how to get that spring loaded idler tensioner to work keeping the belt tight. If not I'll just use a slotted bracket and bolt to maintain the adjustment.

I took some pictures of parts of it, but my lathe needs some new sharper cutting bits, and I'm tired, so I'm going to bed now. Probably won't sleep much... I expect to have Kubota Motors dancing in my head all night.

Not sure what the Triumph Alt puts out, but we can figure it should be enough since we've eliminated the ignition system from the bikes task, and made it all simple 4 wire diesel. One hot wire to the starter from the battery, one from the starter button to start, and one to the fuel shut off switch. Lighting circuits should remain the main.
Oh and the 4th is the chassis ground!

[coachgeo]

Got a solution figured out George. Going to take the Triumph Alternator and removed the gear drive Then I took the little idler pulley off the Kubota engine and pressed out it''s bearing. ....

Curtis,

I think the Suzuki one has higher amp output than the Tiger's alternator. Tiger is said to have a rather anaemic charging system. Also it has an integral rectifier and regulator which think the Tiger does not. Though Im not sure that is of any advantage except think I read that the Tiger one is u prone to over heat if I recall right.

Ok just rechecked...... the Suzuki one I sent you is suppose to be 35amp while the Tiger's is only 25amp. If The Zuki alt. checks out might be best to use that one in case add heated grips, suit etc. in the future. That way too I can sell Tiger engine parts which are harder to find and might bring more cash than reselling the Zuki alternator.

[coachgeo]

Talked to him today. Were going with the Suzuki one.

[Curtis in Texas]

Well we're rolling now.
Figured out a way to use the Suzuki Alternator on the Kubota. Here's the little monster.


I took the Hub out of the middle of the Suzuki Generator

and turned it down on my lathe to where it is the same size as the bearing hole inside of the idler pulley on the right.
Almost there! Another 7 MM and it will be ready!

It will be an interference fit much like a starter ring gear on a flywheel. That should eliminate the alternator issue.
Best part is it will look like it came from the Factory this way!

I will make a bracket to fit to the underside of the Suzuki Alternator so I can bolt it up to the engine block where the idler pulley was. I want to examine the Idler Belt Pulley Tensioner and see if I can get that spring loaded contraption to work on the alternator without getting in the way. Would be cool to never have to adjust the belt tension until it breaks!!!
If not I'll use the standard slotted bracket for adjusting!

More in a few days!

[Curtis in Texas]

A little lathe time and it's ready.


I cut down the hub to the exact same outer dimensions of the bearing.


You're going to love this. I was in the shop last night until Midnight working on this build and got up early this morning to fix a Mates Bike Issue. So after he bought lunch, he left and I got back on the Alternator mod. Since I was tired from last night I threw the hub into the freezer in my Motorhome and took a nap on it's couch. Then about an hour later I got up, hung the pulley on a coat hanger, dangled it in front of the blower furnace and heated it up. Got it nice and toasty. Just before the paint burned off the pulley I retrieved the Hub from the freezer and dropped it inside the pulley bearing hole and BINGO!


Let the parts reach room temperature and it is in there to stay. Nothing short of a 40,000 lb press will get it out now.
Front View. (I reinstalled the "C" clip just to see if it would go. So don't worry it's not holding anything together.)

Rear view.


Then bolted it back on the Alternator.






The pulley is as close as I can get it to the Alternator Housing without hitting. Going to need it close because the exhaust port is almost too close to the back of the Alternator. Since I'm putting the Alternator in where the Idler pulley was it needs to be compact.



Got a cool idea on the mounting system that I'll share with the Group once I'm sure it's going to work. It will be slick if it works.

[coachgeo]

....
The pulley is as close as I can get it to the Alternator Housing without hitting. Going to need it close because the exhaust port is almost too close to the back of the Alternator. Since I'm putting the Alternator in where the Idler pulley was it needs to be compact.



Got a cool idea on the mounting system that I'll share with the Group once I'm sure it's going to work. It will be slick if it works.

look forward to this and TY for updating me and the readers here.

NOTE/Reminder to everyone else. This engine had no charging system. There was an idler pulley sitting in what is my guess the generic area the OEM alternator would have gone. This idler is where he yanked the pulley from to be mated to the Suzuki alternator described above. The idler's original location is where he's planning to mount the alternator.


Oh and Curtis; For future reference; unlike AdvRider that your use too. you can upload attachments directly to here instead of being forced to use a picture hosting site. Makes no since to me that AdvRider makes you do that. All the great projects there will eventually loose their pics leaving a worthless archive of fixes, farkles, and projects.

Uploading here is the preference IMHO when it comes to building a great archive; especially one that shows quality work like yours. Hate to see this thread loose your pics in the future since the photobook page archive and links probably wont last as long as this site will.

[coachgeo]

...Oh and Curtis; For future reference; unlike AdvRider that your use too. you can upload attachments directly to here instead of being forced to use a picture hosting site. Makes no since to me that AdvRider makes you do that. All the great projects there will eventually loose their pics leaving a worthless archive of fixes, farkles, and projects.

Uploading here is the preference IMHO when it comes to building a great archive; especially one that shows quality work like yours. Hate to see this thread loose your pics in the future since the photobook page archive and links probably wont last as long as this site will.

ahhhhhhhhh.. Curtis tells me he keeps getting kicked off the site to easy so he doesn't even try to upload. Does it all with a word processor with needed pic links then cuts and paste it into here fast before getting kicked off..

[Curtis in Texas]

Did a little research last night and there is room to slot the main alternator housing for the engines alternator tab to fit into. I'll let you know if it works.

Should be able to bore the engine tab for a brass bushing for the bolt to ride on and just run a through bolt through the lower alternator hole. This will eliminate the need for another bracket AND mount the alternator in closer and lower on the block for more exhaust port clearance.

And for inquiring minds I took some pictures of the backside (business end) of the two Motorcycle Alternators for comparison.

First the Katana Alternator. (Note the regulator)


Now note the Triumph Alternator and notice the Regulators look like the same parts.


The brush covers are exactly the same. Only the nose of the housings where it bolts to the bike engine is different.
And that difference is only the placement of the mounting bolts. The Triumph has two mounts closer together than the Suzuki.

Would be interesting to know if the two share the same part #.

And evertime I try to post it directs me to the log in page. Only took me 8 logins to get last nights post to go.
Sheese! Attempt # 2

[coachgeo]

.... And evertime I try to post it directs me to the log in page. Only took me 8 logins to get last nights post to go.
Sheese! Attempt # 2

Stupid question but.... when you log in do you check the box for
[ ] Log me on automatically each visit
found below the username/password area?

[Curtis in Texas]

.... And evertime I try to post it directs me to the log in page. Only took me 8 logins to get last nights post to go.
Sheese! Attempt # 2

Stupid question but.... when you log in do you check the box for
[ ] Log me on automatically each visit
found below the username/password area?

Yep! using the Internet since Atari Days, and for me to NOT check that for 7 times in a row wouldn't be a mistake I'd keep on repeating.
Got no clue why it's like this. That last post stuck after 2 shots.
We'll see how many this one takes. Don't loose any sleep over it George.
2nd try!
If it becomes too big a problem I'll start sending the updates to you and let you post them. Since it's your build anyway!

More Update.

Some interesting observations.
The Regulator Covers on the Suzuki and Triumph look like the same, but they have the vent holes in different places. So remembering a discussion George and I had about where the vent holes were and our question if they would let water into the alternator and cause a problem I got to investigating.

And sure enough if the covers are swapped the vent holes will be moved more towards the bottom on the Suzuki Alt with the Triumph Cover.

If you blow up these pictures you will see that I have them both in the same orientation with the wiring loom notch in the same place. Notice the vent holes.
(EDIT NOTE: the Triumph one is the dirty one on the left. Shiney one is from the Suzy!)
Notch side.


Other side of Caps.



I'm cutting a mounting notch in the alternator for mounting the Alt low and close. And initial mock up shows the Alternator caps it to be a good swap.

One More Thing!

Oh and I wired the Suzuki Alt so it will plug into the Triumph wiring harness when we get to that point.
I'll be running the alternator to my Sub Contractor and get them to test the Katana Alternator to make sure it works. (Same Shop that rebuilt your Rabbit Starter George.)

[coachgeo]

....Got no clue why it's like this. That last post stuck after 2 shots.....We'll see how many this one takes. Don't loose any sleep over it George. ...

Figured it was a long shot but one should never assume LOL. Think it's Texas LOL. Had problems accessing the board at various times in TX too. After moved; no issue. Must be the server's in the south have an issue with the server's that it pipes thru to get to TX?

Interesting about the covers. Thanx for aiming your keen eye on the little things as this progresses!!!

[Curtis in Texas]

Almost have the alternator ready to mount. Will post pictures when I get it done. Broke my special little sander I need to finish it. Looks like I'll be buying another little belt sander. No surprise, because I've abused this one for years.

[coachgeo]

Almost have the alternator ready to mount. Will post pictures when I get it done. Broke my special little sander I need to finish it. Looks like I'll be buying another little belt sander. No surprise, because I've abused this one for years.

few more pics from curtus

Alternator housing slotted to create a tightly tucked close into the engine alternator. This is pivot point for adjustment. Mounted to OEM tab on block (tab end modified slightly for clearance). Pic is shot from above with alternator swung out wide on pivot point created with this slot

Front View. Note the Alternator housing's mount tab sitting closest to block. This will be the one utilized for belt adjustment setup. Will at some point cut off 3rd mounting point on the Alternator housing to keep nice clean lines and unnessisary width

Just enough room for Headers. Note how using the Triumph Alternator end cap puts the breather holes toward the bottom where the Suzuki were more exposed to the elements. But then again. Ground muck kicks UP off the tires while clean rain kicks down... hmmmm. so maybe Suzki would be better after all??

[Curtis in Texas]

Just how many mud holes do you plan on riding this heavy thing through George? Remind me not to ride with you or we should bring some stronger guys with us.

I suspect it will be sitting out in the rain more than it will be riding through mud puddles. Therefore, it is my recommendation that we leave the vent holes on the bottom so everything can drain rather, than making a cup to fill up and hold water in.

Oh, I picked up the new belt for it while I was in town and it fits perfectly at 36 inches.

One more thing down

[Curtis in Texas]

Alternator almost done. I want to build a brass insert in the engine tab for the bolt to ride on since the tab is aluminum. Here's the Alternator with the new belt on.



It will work like this but for a longer trouble free life I think the bronze bushing will be just the ticket.

Here is the adjuster I made out of aluminum.



Doesn't look like much in the picture, but I milled it out of solid 1/2 inch aluminum plate. Might anodize it before we ride the bike! Then it would look a lot better.

AND, I might still cut that extra mounting hole off of the alternator. But I think I'll wait to see if it causes a problem once we start mounting the engine in the cradle. FYI the alternator sticks out just a little more than the starter motor, measured off the face of the block. And I"m only talking about 1/2 (26 MM), so I don't see it as being a mojor obstacle.

So George, we can pretty much call this problem fixed. Well, we do have to test this alternator to see if it's going to work, but, even if it doesn't it will just be a matter of getting it rebuilt.

[coachgeo]

Just how many mud holes do you plan on riding this heavy thing through George? Remind me not to ride with you or we should bring some stronger guys with us.....

lol.... yep we'll need some beasty boy's to pick up a tiger after in impromptu sleep.

Your the most experienced so if you say bottom venting is best..... then bottom it is.

[coachgeo]

Alternator almost done. I want to build a brass insert in the engine tab for the bolt to ride on since the tab is aluminum. Here's the Alternator with the new belt on......It will work like this but for a longer trouble free life I think the bronze bushing will be just the ticket.

Here is the adjuster I made out of aluminum....Doesn't look like much in the picture, but I milled it out of solid 1/2 inch aluminum plate. Might anodize it before we ride the bike! Then it would look a lot better.

AND, I might still cut that extra mounting hole off of the alternator. But I think I'll wait...

So George, we can pretty much call this problem fixed. Well, we do have to test this alternator to see if it's going to work, but, even if it doesn't it will just be a matter of getting it rebuilt.

Sounds and looks GREAT. One thing off the check list and moving forward. LOVE IT