Winter approaches

[sbrumby]

Nearly time to put the big bike in for winter, this I do every year and get it out again in April. This time with the price of fuel as it is I am getting the small bike out. It has not been on the road for a couple of years, but with a new battery started first pull with the same fuel that has been in the tank for 3 years. Drove for an MOT and past no probs, didnt even start the engine. At over 200mpg it should save on van fuel. I might try running on veg oil so will let you know how that goes. It only has a top speed of 41mph but the way I see it with winter fast approaching 41 is as fast as I want to go.

[Stuart]

I tend to use the slower Enfield more in the winter Sam. Chucking a bigger, heavier bike around on leaf mulch is always a bit dodgy. Saying that, I've got new boots & brakes on the Tiger so it will still see plenty of action.
Might be a bit cold to run it on veggie though?

[oldbmw]

I grabbed a hole in the rain and went for a ride yesterday, about 30 miles. I try through the winter to grab a ride whenever the weather is conducive to me enjoying myself. In the spring I do a full service irrespective of mileage and then ride it until the following year. Sometimes if I have had a long trip I might just change outt he oil if it is likely to get near service life.

[DieselFly]

Don't run veg in the cold it will turn to margerine! Even if it does not congeal if will be to thick to flow. Not to mention all of the other problems with running SVO

[sbrumby]

When you say it will turn to margerine and will not flow, what temperature are you talking about ? and are all the various forms of veg oil all the same ? ie. sunflower, rape, etc. I dont know anything about it myself but I was just assuming if it pores out the bottle it will flow in the bike ? and what other problems with SVO ?

[coachgeo]

When you say it will turn to margerine and will not flow, what temperature are you talking about ? and are all the various forms of veg oil all the same ? ie. sunflower, rape, etc. I dont know anything about it myself but I was just assuming if it pores out the bottle it will flow in the bike ? and what other problems with SVO ?

A knowledgable veg. oil fueler could write pages and pages on each of those questions.

Suggest you begin to frequient veg fuel discussion boards like you do here to increase your personal knowledge base.

You might try.... http://burnveg.com/forum/ and its root page of http://burnveg.com

[sbrumby]

Thanks for that coach, I did click on to the links but for me to trawl through all that information on those links I would die from bordom and if I added up the time I had to spend on the sites it would make more sence for me to forget veg oil and just burn diesel. All I was looking for was someone to simply comment on my questions and give simple ansewers.

[Stuart]

Some others have two tanks, start the bike on normal diesel & switch to veggie or cooking oil which comes from a secondary tank which is warmed by the exhaust or engine.

[coachgeo]

... All I was looking for was someone to simply comment on my questions and give simple ansewers.

While I understand you were looking for simple.... reality is.... there is no simple. Alot of the bad name of using veg oil comes from those who took a simple answer, ran with it, and consequently damaged their engine. There is evidence of that right in here on this board. It can work well.... but there is complexity to it if you want it to work over the long haul.

Same as those who hear some simple stuff about building a diesel bike.... run with it, throw in a little 10hp and cant get over 45mph, end result is a they call it a failure and claim diesel bikes are for the birds, giving diesel bikes an underserved bad name.

[XLerate]

CoachGeo is absolutely right and summed it up simply in a nutshell twice. Not to be offensive but apparently you're asking others to please go do the research and spend the time figuring everything out then give you a 50 word synopsis: ain't going to happen.

If you do any research for yourself on the subject you'll see a whole bunch of posts in forums by guys claiming stuff like, "Well I just been pouring used engine oil through a coffee filter and runnin it straight in my engine, 2,500 miles now and no problems! You guys are nuts saying it causes engine damage." Or "Hey, I run used frier oil and just heat it up and filter it and it's great, no problems!"

Yeah? Well get back to us in 10,00 to 15,000 miles or very much sooner and tell us about what the engine and injector pump rebuild cost!?! No, you need to address issues of proper heating, pre-filtering, separation, centrifuge filtration, solids and semi-solids, sub-micron filtration, contaminants, acids, viscosity, dual or triple tanks, special fuel pumps and fuel lines, gelling, water formation, proper insulations, spoilage, metals compatability, synthetics compatability, local and country laws and fuel regulations, plus several other items both minor and major importance.

There is no 'simple' regarding this subject. If there was everybody would be doing it. That's why there's a dozen forums and dozens of mfgr's directly involved in it. Very unsimple on the whole.

[Stuart]

XLerate, I'm speaking on Sam's behalf here but I suspect he was just asking for some 'potted' advice simply because he is not quite as familiar with technical forum search options or computers as some of us are.
Sam has built 3 diesel bikes to my knowledge and has my total respect on that front.

[sbrumby]

Here is the start of my trials on running with veg oil. Take one lawnmower with same engine as small bike. Disconect tank and replace with syringe filled with veg oil. 20 litres £20. 100% GM soya oil. Pull cord and away she goes admitedly on diesel to start with as there is a small inline filter before pump. A few seconds later on pure corn oil.
Runs OK apart from smelling like a chip shop. The syringe works well and the plunger automatically travels down as the oil is used. Stoped on veg oil, left it a short while and tried the restart. Would not start,gave a squirt of easystart and away she went. Next did a fifty fifty blend of diesel and oil mixed in a bean can and back into the syringe. Squirt of easystart and away she went. Let her run a bit. Stop and restart, this time no easystart. The interesting thing is the plunger in the syringe does not like diesel and you have to give it a bit of a push. The plunger probably reacts to the diesel.

[DieselFly]

I based my comments on the fact that Sbrumby's bike is in no way set up to run SVO. Dual tanks heated fuel fuel lines including the injector line are a must. As well as some means to monitor fuel temp. Do read and understand how to run SVO so you don't get stuck away from home in the cold. And also eccept that SVO can (not always) cause damage in long term use. Most damage is caused from incomplete combustion caused by fuel that is to thick (cold) giving a poor spray pattern. There is no single solution to running SVO but some good general rules of thumbto start your own experiment. Each engine will respond differently and if you choose the SVO path start in the summer might save a walk home

[Stuart]

I always see the same guy at Hamm running on cooking oil but is everywhere! I dunno how it gets out but the engine is covered in it. Messiest engine I ever saw

[XLerate]

Sam & Stuart I do owe half an apology. I get confused on all the different pet abbreviations for all the different types of oils & fuels and thought he was talking about WVO, not SVO.

I'd spent many weeks researching WVO and other fuels and even built some of my kit, all ready to get started on conversion. Then I found out about all the drawbacks! Fantastically complicated to get it right. In the long term a minor screwup includes total destruction of the engine & pump just from a simple mistake. That's why I reacted and listed all the complications and suggested getting on the research. But, the subject was SVO! I was therefore wrong on that.

The other part was that I felt that I saw an attack and insult aimed at CoachGeo and I didn't like it.

[gilburton]

As someone who has played around with veg oil on cars unless you do lots of miles and /or have access to supplies of wvo/svo considering the high mpg of diesel bikes it's not really worth the effort/expense.
It has always been understood that veg oil does not work well in direct injection engines i.e. most modern cars and industrial engines. Why do you see people searching for older cars such as Mercedes,Peugeot,VW etc? The answer is they are indirect injection.
The oil has to be heated so water cooling is best.
In the winter you have to thin the veg oil down with diesel eg 50/50 mix which makes the savings against diesel even less.
OK you can get round all this with heat exchangers/twin tanks etc. but on a simple single cylinder industrial engine you are adding complication,weight and extra cost let alone possible unreliability.
I don't want to put you off experimenting but there are plenty of failures out there

[DieselFly]

I had to wait till I got to work today as this article was saved here. I is a very good read on Biodiesel and the pros and cons of its use. You can apply every drawback of biodiesel to SVO or WVO and then ad all the other nasty things that can happen from there use if not done correctly. The basic drawbacks of biodiesel start at 2.0
http://www.biodiesel.org/docs/using-hot ... f?sfvrsn=4

Sean

[coachgeo]

... been understood that veg oil does not work well in direct injection engines i.e. most modern cars and industrial engines. ..The answer is they are indirect injection.
The oil has to be heated so water cooling is best.
In the winter you have to thin the veg oil down with diesel eg 50/50 mix which makes the savings against diesel even less.
OK you can get round all this with heat exchangers/twin tanks etc. but on a simple single cylinder industrial engine you are adding complication,weight and extra cost let alone possible unreliability....

hehe... thank you for outlining the alt. fuel advantages of the 3cyl diesel bikes. Like IDI, IP's more tolerant to veg, water cooled ...

[gilburton]

Agreed,any bike made from an older indirect injection car engine will be fine as long as it has a Bosch pump NOT lucas.
Veg oil can be tipped straight in the tank but obviously in colder temperatures it will have to be mixed to thin it out and/or a heat exchanger added.
I gave up when my daily commute was only 20mls combined with a lack of local supply when the svo prices shot up a few years ago. It also increased the price of wvo.
I know the attraction is free or low cost fuel but if you wreck your engine that saving is soon lost.

[coachgeo]

Agreed,any bike made from an older indirect injection car engine will be fine as long as it has a Bosch pump NOT lucas...

Car engine's too big for realistic bike for daily use and / or adventure travel. Most industrial 3cyl like Kubota, Yanmar, Diahatsu and the likes are all IDI. Most are NOT a rotarly style IP (lucas Cav design) but are plunger pumpers instead (bosch style).

[mark_in_manchester]

Hi Sam

My Daihatsu-Ural runs OK on a 50-50 WVO / diesel mix. I do this when the WVO is free, and filter it through a series of cloth filter bags first. I keep an eye on engine oil as I'm told veg oil spoils this sooner and can cause it to thicken/gel-ify, and I also use a 2-tank system so I can start (and, I try to remember, END) a journey on diesel - apparently in a cool engine WVO can gum / soot-up rings. I've tried various types of fuel heaters (using water circuit / electric / waste heat from cyl head) but for 50-50 it makes no difference. If your WVO is near free then 100mpg turns into 200mpg which, to my mind, is an experiment worth making - though of course others may disagree.

I tried straight veg oil once, and it ran just long enough to fill inj pump. Only took 200 kicks to purge it

Mark

[Stuart]

A little white spirit (or, in US, wood alcohol) put in used veg oil helps the waste food fat stick together & drop to the bottom. I've done this before mixing 50/50. It's gotta help it get thru the filter better hasn't it? Takes a while to work tho.

[alexanderfoti]

I have a twin tank kit, although I ended up finding the best mix for me.

92% veg oil 8% petrol. The petrol thins is much more than the same amount of diesel and I have no issues with cold starts or performance problems like I did with pure veg oil.

[sbrumby]

I am now running the van on roughly a 50/50 mix and I cant notice any difference. But the last post interests me, in that petrol is cheaper than diesel and if it mixes at a different lower ratio, that seems all the better. Is there a downside to this? I can do some simple experiments to get the corn oil /petrol to the same viscosity to that of diesel, unless someone comes back to me with some reason why this would not be good.

[coachgeo]

I am now running the van on roughly a 50/50 mix and I cant notice any difference. But the last post interests me, in that petrol is cheaper than diesel and if it mixes at a different lower ratio, that seems all the better. Is there a downside to this? I can do some simple experiments to get the corn oil /petrol to the same viscosity to that of diesel, unless someone comes back to me with some reason why this would not be good.

the info on petrol mixing is sketchy. A purist and or simplist looks at it mathmatically and says "stupid" "you loose power", "you loose luberocity" "you'll ruin the engine" etc etc. and in some of that they would be right. But the deeper details which few have explored say different. What I've read is imperical and some scientific that Im not smart enough to fully understand so HIGLY suggest you do searching to edumicate yourself.

Crux of it is.
Math.... add "octane" power value of petrol (consider it a postive number) to Cetane; power value of diesel and oils like veg. (consider it a negative number) and you get a value closer to zero as in zero power. This is the simple argument. Same idea for lowering luberocity.

BUT..... Cetane/octane thing...... may be negated. There is some talk of a two flame front during combustion when using "small" % petrol blends.* Theory is this double flame front improves combustion of the fue oil . One flame front comes from combustion of fuel oil... the other from Petrol........ therfore it ends up with a total combustion result equal too or possibly higher than same cetane value of diesel oil used under typical circumstances.

AND... luberocity thing...... yes petrol lowers the luberocity of fuel oils. Too much % mix... you got problems but since veg oil; a fuel oil, has a higher luberocity then diesel; a fuel oil also, a small % blend will only lower it to something equal to diesel. There is a difference between luberocity and viscocity.

NOTE: Veg. Oil fuels combust at a DIFFERENT moment of compression in the engine than diesel does. To get full benefit of any veg fuel you should experement also with engine timing to get full combustion of the experemntal fuel being used. This step is skipped in 99 % of veg. oil experements so its hard to tell if resulting coking etc. was due to the new fuel or lack of timing adjustments allwoing for new fuel to ever have been fully combusted. Time an engine to where diesel is not getting fully combusted and it will coke too.

[jeremy]

Hi Sam! My two cents on this: Awhile ago I contacted the HATZ-US distributor to ask some technical questions of their staff. Once I got to a guy who had the engineering knowledge, he advised that their engines should never be run on anything more than "B-5", or a five percent cut of diesel with vegetable fuels (here I believe he was referring to biodiesel in particular). He indicated that the little fuel pump was too delicate for the task. I never know if these rep's are warning from experience, or just from fear of the unknown or of legal liability, but I can tell you that in the diesel industry, almost every tradesman I've asked would rather pee in his tank than use any type of VO fuel. This I believe is due to the devil being in the details, as Xlereate has suggested--and in their case, they have over and over been called in to correct the damage others have done to their systems. I am one of those who jumped blissfully into the behavior when the big recent fad began, by pouring poorly refined (and water-contaminated) biodiesel into the tanks of both my Ford F-250 and a GM 2-71 0n my heavy yard machine. Two entire fuel systems later, I understand a bit more clearly about the technical challenges. If I ever do it again, it will be with the use of a poison additive, and extreme care about water-contamination behavior (this includes atmospheric water that condenses out inside the empty space in your tank). Turns out that once the bacteria begin eating (they dwell in O2-rich water and gorge on the oil), they excrete acids, they break the oil--and your diesel--down into its constituent parts, one of which is this nasty stuff that looks like bell-wire varnish, and just generally wreak havoc. Metals can look rusty inside your sealed fuel system, small orifices plugged, delicate mechanical workings gummed up etc. Sad that such a seemingly "green" behavior as burning renewable fuel sends one to adding poisons, and who knows what that delivers into our lungs as we whiff that delightful alternative smell...but that's how it is.

[sbrumby]

Thanks for all the points that have been made, I am a little confused by Alexanderfoti,s post. You say you have a 2 tank system. On a bike? or car? I thought the whole point of a 2 tank system was to start on regular diesel then switch over to 100% veg oil when up to temperature then back again before you stop, thus starting always on diesel.

[coachgeo]

Thanks for all the points that have been made, I am a little confused by Alexanderfoti,s post. You say you have a 2 tank system. On a bike? or car? I thought the whole point of a 2 tank system was to start on regular diesel then switch over to 100% veg oil when up to temperature then back again before you stop, thus starting always on diesel.

Think he has a two tank bike but..... he also has experimented with blends inside one of the tanks and found some success. Where two tankers do not help much is when your commute is short enough to where your engine coolant does not get hot enough to switch to veg... much less have time to switch off of it for long enough period to purge all the veg out of the system.

One of the best things to do beside tuning engine timing to your fuel ..... is to allways have a way to preheat the coolant /engine. If you can plug in an engine heater even in summer... do it.. and if your a lucky shiat and can at work too... then your in fat city. Majority of the coking even on a straight diesel engine occurs at start up. Un burnt fuel hitting cold cyclinder wall and draining down to the rings. Hot cylinder.... more complete burn of all the fuel and if I read it right.. even if it hits a hot wall... it's less an issue for a reason I dont know.

[sbrumby]

Right done another test today. Bought a gallon of the green stuff. Got a syringe with a small outlet and filled with diesel 60ml in the syringe. timed how long to drain out, about 47sec. Tried the veg oil, this was way longer would have been 400sec if I had waited. Mixed 60ml of veg with 10ml of petrol, this was still way longer than 47sec, so tried 60ml veg and 20ml petrol. This was about 57sec. Tried this in the lawnmower with the Yanmar engine, starting on diesel then changing to the 60/20mix, not good, did not stop but not far off, the revs died to perhaps a 1/4. Although it mixes well i believe the petrol element is exploding far before top dead center and thus robbing the power by slowing the piston. Still it was worth a try and would have been good if it had worked.