Chaps,
Do any of our members from the States have any experiences of the Tote Goat type of trail scooters?
Looking at the available info on the www this looks like being a nice small project for a diesel motor.
I was particulary interested in the 2 speed transmission running off the CVT giving a low and high speed (on road /off road) gearing options.
The frames look exceptionally strong with an additional support bar running from the centre of the headstock to the front motor mount.
If I could knock one together with a 55 mph top whack then it would suit me perfectly - never mind Charlie and Ewans BMW adventures - I'd strap on some old army bags and head off into the sunset.
Perhaps I'd put a little screen on the front...
Dave
Tote Goat's and other American Mini Off Roaders
Moderators: Dan J, Diesel Dave, Crazymanneil, Stuart
-
Diesel Dave
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1016
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 am
- Location: Essex, UK
- Contact:
-
Stuart
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2218
- Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:08 pm
- Location: Horsham West Sussex, England
- Contact:
Some links to them showing drives..
http://www.minidoodle.com/id144.htm
from:http://www.minidoodle.com/id32.htm Loadsa scoot's there
http://www.minidoodle.com/id144.htm
from:http://www.minidoodle.com/id32.htm Loadsa scoot's there
-
smokyjoe
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 1:42 am
- Location: Western Taxachusetts (Massachusetts) USA
Hey Dave,
I've got a 2WD ROKON. You won't want to go 55 on any of these, Tote Gote included! There's no suspension, or not much on any on the 1WD models and a very short wheelbase with bouncy big tires. Maybe 20 MPH is good, but not comfortable. Not a road machine at all.
I'm putting a "horizontal" Honda ATC90 motor in mine, originally it had a 2 stroke, but it still will be a 20 MPH ride at best through the woods doing it for reliability and better fuel consumption. With a Diesel (or any other "vertical" engine) you'd lose the bike's (Rokon's) biggest attribute, ground clearance. Check out the Rokon bikes made for the Mexican mine with a diesel at www.rokonworld.com , these and any other such "vertical engined" Rokons are called "Pot Bellied Rokons" among Rokon enthusiasts.
I was looking at the Honda Big Ruckus 250cc? scooter ( I'm sure they've named it something else on your side of the pond), looks like something along this line with a small Diesel would be nice. Would be pretty easy to make, too. Looks like a fun ride.
A thought I'd had for a while is shortening a regular motorcycle fork but still keeping the fork's travel. I was thinking of it for lowering a bike, but would be really useful for building a Diesel 'scoot.
I've got a 2WD ROKON. You won't want to go 55 on any of these, Tote Gote included! There's no suspension, or not much on any on the 1WD models and a very short wheelbase with bouncy big tires. Maybe 20 MPH is good, but not comfortable. Not a road machine at all.
I'm putting a "horizontal" Honda ATC90 motor in mine, originally it had a 2 stroke, but it still will be a 20 MPH ride at best through the woods doing it for reliability and better fuel consumption. With a Diesel (or any other "vertical" engine) you'd lose the bike's (Rokon's) biggest attribute, ground clearance. Check out the Rokon bikes made for the Mexican mine with a diesel at www.rokonworld.com , these and any other such "vertical engined" Rokons are called "Pot Bellied Rokons" among Rokon enthusiasts.
I was looking at the Honda Big Ruckus 250cc? scooter ( I'm sure they've named it something else on your side of the pond), looks like something along this line with a small Diesel would be nice. Would be pretty easy to make, too. Looks like a fun ride.
A thought I'd had for a while is shortening a regular motorcycle fork but still keeping the fork's travel. I was thinking of it for lowering a bike, but would be really useful for building a Diesel 'scoot.
-
Diesel Dave
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1016
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 am
- Location: Essex, UK
- Contact:
Scooter Formats
Europe has seen an explosion in popularity of scooters in the past 5 years and there have been some astounding successes in the larger scooter formats.
Suzi Bergmans are the biggest sellers by far especially in the 400cc range, I ride a 500 TMAX which is Yamaha's offering but the largest are the 600cc Honda Silverwing and the 650 Burgman.
The best way to describe them is 2 wheeled vehicles rather than scooters or motorcycles. Scooters being the traditional 'around town' convenience tool which can be ridden in normal attire and keep your shoes and trousers clean. Motorcycles are a traditional format and should be ridden in boots and other protective layers (even though there was a brave soul in Hamm riding an Enfield with bare feet). Big scooters however are a different animal - fast, good handling, easy luggage carrying and excellent weather protection (my gloves stay dry on the TMAX without resorting to sloppy bar muffs).
As regards the Rokon I've seen them on the net, we have something similar although less refined in the UK which is available in diesel - no suspension but has balloon tyres for low impact on the ground.
I did have a scrapper TMAX chassis a little while back and had thought of fitting a diesel motor into it. Problem was the drive was built into the original petrol motor as was the rear drive and swing arm.
I'm thinking of up-scaling the whole Tote Gote idea into something more substantial, this would allow the whole motor and drive train to be rubber mounted like a car engine. Encase the whole back end in a scooter style bodywork to cut down the noise factor (Ally chequer plate would look good ;¬) with a wrap around style like a Cushman Allstate, then it shouldn't matter too much if I throw it down the road either.
I've always liked the idea of trailing link forks, somehow the action seems correct for the required wheel motion when hitting an obsticle. Just from riding bikes the rear suspension always handles the bumps better than the front as it's action is to swing away from the impact as well as vertically to absorb shock - if you have ever ridden a Vespa it's surprising how well a short linked single sided training link works.
For a build process I'd be looking to create the drive train first on a flat plate type subframe, once this has been done then the frame proper can be constructed around it to fit.
One of the choices I have yet to decide on would be to connect the rear swing arm to the subframe or to the chassis proper. Connecting to the subframe would mean all the driveline components are held firmly together, but handling stability could be an issue. Connecting to the frame would improve handling but would require chain management for the final drive.
Covering the whole affair with bodywork is also a good idea for keeping an agricultural frame and less than aesthetic welding out of sight along with the ugly auto clutch/CVT system. The odd bulge to accommodate poking out parts without making the overall cover too huge would be useful.
Dave
Suzi Bergmans are the biggest sellers by far especially in the 400cc range, I ride a 500 TMAX which is Yamaha's offering but the largest are the 600cc Honda Silverwing and the 650 Burgman.
The best way to describe them is 2 wheeled vehicles rather than scooters or motorcycles. Scooters being the traditional 'around town' convenience tool which can be ridden in normal attire and keep your shoes and trousers clean. Motorcycles are a traditional format and should be ridden in boots and other protective layers (even though there was a brave soul in Hamm riding an Enfield with bare feet). Big scooters however are a different animal - fast, good handling, easy luggage carrying and excellent weather protection (my gloves stay dry on the TMAX without resorting to sloppy bar muffs).
As regards the Rokon I've seen them on the net, we have something similar although less refined in the UK which is available in diesel - no suspension but has balloon tyres for low impact on the ground.
I did have a scrapper TMAX chassis a little while back and had thought of fitting a diesel motor into it. Problem was the drive was built into the original petrol motor as was the rear drive and swing arm.
I'm thinking of up-scaling the whole Tote Gote idea into something more substantial, this would allow the whole motor and drive train to be rubber mounted like a car engine. Encase the whole back end in a scooter style bodywork to cut down the noise factor (Ally chequer plate would look good ;¬) with a wrap around style like a Cushman Allstate, then it shouldn't matter too much if I throw it down the road either.
I've always liked the idea of trailing link forks, somehow the action seems correct for the required wheel motion when hitting an obsticle. Just from riding bikes the rear suspension always handles the bumps better than the front as it's action is to swing away from the impact as well as vertically to absorb shock - if you have ever ridden a Vespa it's surprising how well a short linked single sided training link works.
For a build process I'd be looking to create the drive train first on a flat plate type subframe, once this has been done then the frame proper can be constructed around it to fit.
One of the choices I have yet to decide on would be to connect the rear swing arm to the subframe or to the chassis proper. Connecting to the subframe would mean all the driveline components are held firmly together, but handling stability could be an issue. Connecting to the frame would improve handling but would require chain management for the final drive.
Covering the whole affair with bodywork is also a good idea for keeping an agricultural frame and less than aesthetic welding out of sight along with the ugly auto clutch/CVT system. The odd bulge to accommodate poking out parts without making the overall cover too huge would be useful.
Dave
-
taildraggin
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:11 am
- Location: Suffolk, New York USA
Dave: I'm not sure that they are familiar in the UK, but those collectively, are known has 'minibikes' in the US and they are the scourge of moms and dads with 13 or 14 year old boys. To parents, the sound in the woods and the single word, 'kidsonminibikes' has all the appeal of a troup of gypsies coming to town.
They are a piece of modern Americana, ranking right there with BB guns and trampolines. I went into a Wal-Mart and they had one sitting on top of a display of fresh bananas in the vegetable section. That is an ambush that Mom cannot withstand, "Look Mom, a minibike! etc..."
Just about every boy had one, or his buddy did, and it is most motorcyclists 'first bike'. The first thing to do is remove the governor, then chop it in some ridiculous fashion, crash it a lot, then become old enough to drive a car and pass the remains to your little brother.
The Tote-Goat looks like the Cadillac-of-Minibikes. They would be easy to put a diesel in, as they use Briggs or Tecumseh lawnmower engines. They cannot be made road legal here, though.
They are a piece of modern Americana, ranking right there with BB guns and trampolines. I went into a Wal-Mart and they had one sitting on top of a display of fresh bananas in the vegetable section. That is an ambush that Mom cannot withstand, "Look Mom, a minibike! etc..."
Just about every boy had one, or his buddy did, and it is most motorcyclists 'first bike'. The first thing to do is remove the governor, then chop it in some ridiculous fashion, crash it a lot, then become old enough to drive a car and pass the remains to your little brother.
The Tote-Goat looks like the Cadillac-of-Minibikes. They would be easy to put a diesel in, as they use Briggs or Tecumseh lawnmower engines. They cannot be made road legal here, though.
-
Diesel Dave
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1016
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 am
- Location: Essex, UK
- Contact:
Tote Gotes
American kids always had the coolest stuff.
The backs of the Marvel comics were full of adverts for all sorts of stuff from X-Ray specs to BB guns.
I grew up mostly in africa where such things were unheard of - I did have a very nice German air rifle and my dad made me a pellet mould so I could make my own slugs.
I would have loved one of those bikes back then, could have roamed for miles.
D
The backs of the Marvel comics were full of adverts for all sorts of stuff from X-Ray specs to BB guns.
I grew up mostly in africa where such things were unheard of - I did have a very nice German air rifle and my dad made me a pellet mould so I could make my own slugs.
I would have loved one of those bikes back then, could have roamed for miles.
D
-
Stuart
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2218
- Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:08 pm
- Location: Horsham West Sussex, England
- Contact:
Some plans on offer here:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GO-KART-MINI-BIKE ... .m63.l1177
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GO-KART-MINI-BIKE ... .m63.l1177
-
Diesel Dave
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1016
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 am
- Location: Essex, UK
- Contact:
Mini Bikes
Fantastic - I'll make a wooden one.
What do you think the SVA folks will make of it?
What do you think the SVA folks will make of it?
-
taildraggin
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:11 am
- Location: Suffolk, New York USA
Well, we didn't have fizzies. I'd a given my left nut for one of those!
Minibikes are about as crude a mode of motion (I can't say 'transportation') as exists. Most are remembered by their former owners today by the scars on their shins, nose, head and hands (see: BB gun, trampoline).
It would have been weeks of fun in africa though, my gosh! But, then again, anything with wheels would have been, no? "Bye ma, headed down to the valley to watch the buff, see you thursday."
Corgi are kind of similar, no?
Minibikes are about as crude a mode of motion (I can't say 'transportation') as exists. Most are remembered by their former owners today by the scars on their shins, nose, head and hands (see: BB gun, trampoline).
It would have been weeks of fun in africa though, my gosh! But, then again, anything with wheels would have been, no? "Bye ma, headed down to the valley to watch the buff, see you thursday."
Corgi are kind of similar, no?
-
Diesel Dave
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1016
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 am
- Location: Essex, UK
- Contact:
Cool Kids stuff
Lots of lies told about Fizzies - neither mne nor any of my mates versions would ever top 45 'till we started jacking the barrels and holing pistons with expansion chambers.
Used to constantly get blown away by the MZ Simpson S50!
Would have been great to have a Tote Gote or similar but somehow I can't see my parents agreeing to junior dissapearing over the horizon armed with a pellet gun - I might shoot something and just reaaaly annoy it.
Hyena's were the worst - got my guinea pig - bastards!
But back to my outsized Tote Gote -
10" trailer wheels, trailing link front end
Big square frame, welded mesh and chequer plate infill panels
rubber mounted engine/transmission plate
Swing arm rear end
Comet 500 and air cooled twin
none of this fancy motorcycle stuff - weld the bars to the home made forks.
Spray the whole thing urban camo and add a pair of cheap ally panniers.
Jobs a good un!
Dave
Used to constantly get blown away by the MZ Simpson S50!
Would have been great to have a Tote Gote or similar but somehow I can't see my parents agreeing to junior dissapearing over the horizon armed with a pellet gun - I might shoot something and just reaaaly annoy it.
Hyena's were the worst - got my guinea pig - bastards!
But back to my outsized Tote Gote -
10" trailer wheels, trailing link front end
Big square frame, welded mesh and chequer plate infill panels
rubber mounted engine/transmission plate
Swing arm rear end
Comet 500 and air cooled twin
none of this fancy motorcycle stuff - weld the bars to the home made forks.
Spray the whole thing urban camo and add a pair of cheap ally panniers.
Jobs a good un!
Dave
-
taildraggin
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:11 am
- Location: Suffolk, New York USA
-
Diesel Dave
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1016
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 am
- Location: Essex, UK
- Contact:
Mikes Mini Scooter
That's mike Sieberts bike - the one that broke the crank with less than 10 hours on the clock.
You can actually buy the frames ready made:
http://www.dandsmotorsports.com/large_f ... i_bike.htm
I want sommat similar just a bit bigger with suspension at each end.
Dave
You can actually buy the frames ready made:
http://www.dandsmotorsports.com/large_f ... i_bike.htm
I want sommat similar just a bit bigger with suspension at each end.
Dave
-
taildraggin
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:11 am
- Location: Suffolk, New York USA
From that site: I want to build the first diesel bar stool racer (w/cooler trailer).
Then, it sounds like you're consider something like Herr Mesle's Diesel Roller:
I do have scars from minibikes and scooters, so I've had my fondness for them knocked out some. Something about those small wheels makes me bleed...
They've brought over that attractive Aprilia here with the bigger wheels, and that would be terrific with a sharp little diesel, though pricey I suppose. Would be the ultimate scooter, though.
- Charlie
Then, it sounds like you're consider something like Herr Mesle's Diesel Roller:
I do have scars from minibikes and scooters, so I've had my fondness for them knocked out some. Something about those small wheels makes me bleed...
They've brought over that attractive Aprilia here with the bigger wheels, and that would be terrific with a sharp little diesel, though pricey I suppose. Would be the ultimate scooter, though.
- Charlie
-
Diesel Dave
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1016
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 am
- Location: Essex, UK
- Contact:
Scooters
Yup, gettin close, just a bit more 'industrial' looking.
This is my TMAX 500cc scoot:
If one of the big factories ever brought out a 500cc turbo diesel version it would be a world beater.
Dave
This is my TMAX 500cc scoot:
If one of the big factories ever brought out a 500cc turbo diesel version it would be a world beater.
Dave
-
balboa_71
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:27 pm
- Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: Tote Goat's and other American Mini Off Roaders
Dave,
Back when I was a kid (late '60's) we had a few T Goats around. They were the average mini-bike with a few twists, such as 2 speed jackshaft and at one time, worm gear drive reduction and a rear mounted box on the rear axle. The later I have no experience with, and would not tinker with if one could be found. We are back to the common two speed centrifucal clutch chain drive deal that so many builders had like Bonanza and many others. These systems worked very well (based on my limited experience) and if they could still be bought using #40 or better. As you know, running chains off an engine crankshaft is bad news due to the slinging of oil and lubricants. Mini bikes here is the US were doomed to failure from the onset. Cushman took a different approach, they build a belt drive from the engine crankshaft to the tranny input, thus removing the need for lubrication!!! This was done at least (if not more) back 50 years ago!!!. Belts hold up well off the crankshaft cause of less torque ( at least not multiplied by gear reduction), and I talking about non-toothed belts because as you have written many times, diesel singles will strip the teeth off a toothed belt.
Last, USA mini bikes were only play toys, and not worth much else. We all had fun on them, but they would never hold up to on-road use (IMHO)
Regards,
Cris
Back when I was a kid (late '60's) we had a few T Goats around. They were the average mini-bike with a few twists, such as 2 speed jackshaft and at one time, worm gear drive reduction and a rear mounted box on the rear axle. The later I have no experience with, and would not tinker with if one could be found. We are back to the common two speed centrifucal clutch chain drive deal that so many builders had like Bonanza and many others. These systems worked very well (based on my limited experience) and if they could still be bought using #40 or better. As you know, running chains off an engine crankshaft is bad news due to the slinging of oil and lubricants. Mini bikes here is the US were doomed to failure from the onset. Cushman took a different approach, they build a belt drive from the engine crankshaft to the tranny input, thus removing the need for lubrication!!! This was done at least (if not more) back 50 years ago!!!. Belts hold up well off the crankshaft cause of less torque ( at least not multiplied by gear reduction), and I talking about non-toothed belts because as you have written many times, diesel singles will strip the teeth off a toothed belt.
Last, USA mini bikes were only play toys, and not worth much else. We all had fun on them, but they would never hold up to on-road use (IMHO)
Regards,
Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville
-
coachgeo
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 2002
- Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:00 am
- Location: USA Ohio, Above Cincinnati, Close to Dayton
Re: Tote Goat's and other American Mini Off Roaders
Old thread..... new addition
the Mountain Goat in Diesel. a 2x2 rokon-ish bike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwmEPMg33-k
Ahhhhh.... Mountain Goat did not come up in search in here..... but it looked familure. Just realised via more search... see this is actually the Tarus sold by a russian outfit. don't know if the US version is a scam or a US subsidiary. Think we may have a Tarus thread in here.... maybe?
http://www.ridergroups.com/2569/the-ult ... otorcycle/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEUiAF0NpXc
the Mountain Goat in Diesel. a 2x2 rokon-ish bike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwmEPMg33-k
Ahhhhh.... Mountain Goat did not come up in search in here..... but it looked familure. Just realised via more search... see this is actually the Tarus sold by a russian outfit. don't know if the US version is a scam or a US subsidiary. Think we may have a Tarus thread in here.... maybe?
http://www.ridergroups.com/2569/the-ult ... otorcycle/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEUiAF0NpXc
-
UAofE
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 225
- Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:39 am
- Location: Denver, CO USA
Re: Tote Goat's and other American Mini Off Roaders
No way anyone's doing 55mph that. Even Honda Monkey bikes have front shocks are are horrible to ride at their 30mph top speed.
2006 Honda Rebel
Kubota OC95, Comet 44C/44D
Kubota OC95, Comet 44C/44D
-
coachgeo
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 2002
- Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:00 am
- Location: USA Ohio, Above Cincinnati, Close to Dayton
Re: Tote Goat's and other American Mini Off Roaders
UAofE wrote:No way anyone's doing 55mph that. Even Honda Monkey bikes have front shocks are are horrible to ride at their 30mph top speed.
who said anything about 55mph? It's for hunting and adventuring on un cut trail?-
Eddy Wane
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:26 pm
- Location: Crossens, Southport, UK.
Re: Tote Goat's and other American Mini Off Roaders
The Taurus web site says that the bike is available in Russia only at the moment but will be available worldwide in 2015. Here is the link to their web site.
http://www.moto2x2.com/en/
http://www.moto2x2.com/en/
Building the bike. Top of my list, bottom of the wife's.
-
UAofE
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 225
- Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:39 am
- Location: Denver, CO USA
Re: Tote Goat's and other American Mini Off Roaders
The first post.coachgeo wrote:who said anything about 55mph? It's for hunting and adventuring on un cut trail?
Diesel Dave wrote:If I could knock one together with a 55 mph top whack then it would suit me perfectly - never mind Charlie and Ewans BMW adventures - I'd strap on some old army bags and head off into the sunset.
2006 Honda Rebel
Kubota OC95, Comet 44C/44D
Kubota OC95, Comet 44C/44D
-
coachgeo
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 2002
- Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:00 am
- Location: USA Ohio, Above Cincinnati, Close to Dayton
Re: Tote Goat's and other American Mini Off Roaders
oh.. lol...UAofE wrote:The first post.coachgeo wrote:who said anything about 55mph? It's for hunting and adventuring on un cut trail?
Diesel Dave wrote:If I could knock one together with a 55 mph top whack then it would suit me perfectly - never mind Charlie and Ewans BMW adventures - I'd strap on some old army bags and head off into the sunset.
Got it now that you quoted things. Myself; don't remember Yesterday much less something said back in 2008. Thanks for clarifying.Re: Tote Goat's and other American Mini Off Roaders
If it's any help, I'm from the UK monkey scene, DOHC, Desmodronic valves or plain 4v regular heads are all available & will see you topping out at around 90mph depending on weight. Slight upgrade on fork legs & rear suspension is all that needed to make them perfectly comfortable for up to 200+ miles in one sitting.