Ethanol/Bio-Diesel/Veg oil mix: Something to consider...

[Blunt Eversmoke]

Good time o'day, y'all!

Been googlin' for possibilities to run diesels on E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gas) and just stumbled upon this topic http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/dieselmo ... tml?page=8 on a German motor talk forum; it starts with someone wanting to inject E85 into inlet manifold but is taken over by one who actually blends the stuff with his diesel fuel.

His VW Rabbit TDI has, as far as the thread went, claimed over 10000 km on blends with from 5 to 30 % E85, the rest being veg oil and some bio diesel (esthered veg oil) as emulsifier.
We all know adding a second fuel (LPG or alcohol, for example) reduces knock and soot, but most of us would have carbureted the alcohol/LPG into the intake manifold. This pays off only if one is planning to run the engine mainly on the alternative fuel for cost reasons, the diesel oil being used as the pilot charge.

If, however, your goal is limited to reduced knock and cleaner emission (if you are already running cheap/free WVO), and your injection pump is of the simple Bosch type, the results of that guy suggest you could do as he does, which is a way simpler way to go. He doesn't even care mixing the stuff properly, instead, he just pops in his E85 and tops off with the veg oil and bio diesel.

Speaking of which, bio diesel does two things for you: emulsifies the E85 with the veg oil (the blend doesn't de-emulsify with time, BTW, standard diesel fuel has the same effect) and keeps the lubrication properties of the fuel so as to compensate for whatever de-fatting effect the alcohol has on the injection pump.


Bottom line, if your diesel engine has a robust enough pump, such as the old Bosch, you can tank up to 30% E85 as long as you also add some bio diesel. If you have pure ethanol, make sure you add 15% gasoline or it won't mix with the rest of the blend AT ALL! (gasoline being what makes ethanol mix with oils in the first place).

As always when blending, go slow. Begin with 5% E85 and increase gradually to see what your engine can handle. Owners of engines with Lucas pumps beware! These are reported to be extremely sensitive to lubrication qualities of the fuel, if you have a Lucas pump, you will have to revert to carbureting your alternative, non oil fuel or to propane fumigation.


I have not tried it as of yet, but shall try and pour a little E85 into my old little Hatz as soon as I get to the garage.
Be safe!

Blunt

EDIT:

For further considerations, see http://age-web.age.uiuc.edu/faculty/ach ... nfopub.pdf

[coachgeo]

read thru the forums at

Burnveg.com. There is a forum about Blends.

Weather has alot to do with it (ambiant temps). Especially start up temps.

IMH(Somewhat Educated)O- To succussfully use a blend on anything but the MB 617... (or a short copy version of it minsu a few cylinders.. if such an animal exist) you'll need to preheat the engine to normal operating tempratures before firing her up. The start up is where the most coking occurs rather it be with diesel or any other oil based fuel in a heat/compression fired engine. You'll find a thread or two in here where I've mentioned my thoughts on how I hope to do this with my someday Blended veg fuel bike.

The most successfull blend... and the study is concluded on it...... has been the Peter Shure method which does also use some alcohol but not at such a high % level your reading.

There is a few topics in here on alternative fuel. Search my user name in this forum and you should find most of them.

[Blunt Eversmoke]

read thru the forums at

Burnveg.com. There is a forum about Blends.

Weather has alot to do with it (ambiant temps). Especially start up temps.

IMH(Somewhat Educated)O- To succussfully use a blend on anything but the MB 617... (or a short copy version of it minsu a few cylinders.. if such an animal exist) you'll need to preheat the engine to normal operating tempratures before firing her up. The start up is where the most coking occurs rather it be with diesel or any other oil based fuel in a heat/compression fired engine. You'll find a thread or two in here where I've mentioned my thoughts on how I hope to do this with my someday Blended veg fuel bike.

The most successfull blend... and the study is concluded on it...... has been the Peter Shure method which does also use some alcohol but not at such a high % level your reading.

There is a few topics in here on alternative fuel. Search my user name in this forum and you should find most of them.

If the guy ain't pulling our leg altogether, he would have to make extensive use of glow plugs at start up at ANY environmental temperature, and he explicitely states his starter motor HAS to do a lot of work especially in winter - additional warm-up, I'd say. Also, as per his report, there is a lot of unburnt fuel escaping through exhaust as white mist until engine is warm, so I'd say there IS a lot of coking just then. However, at 15-25 % alcohol it should be sure to say all the sooty coke goes the way of the dodo as soon as the operating temperature has been reached
All that said, IF the guy ain't pulling our leg...

EDIT: Oh, and thanks for the link-up. I shall be reading it till I have to go to work, if wifey lets me in peace for that long

[coachgeo]

.....
If the guy ain't pulling our leg altogether,....
EDIT: Oh, and thanks for the link-up. I shall be reading it till I have to go to work, if wifey lets me in peace for that long

What guy? Peter?

John Galt on mentioned forum runs on blends year round in canada. He preheats using cooling system heater year round plugged up at home.

For a motorcycle I was thinking a home brewed LP fired small coolant heater but have not thought it real far thru (like is a little camp lp bottle is enough or if you would have to cary a whole grill bottle.... which... scraps that idea.

Most informative site..... but, and this is why I dont reccomend them at times...... you got alot of crap to weed thru, but still overall it is the best and that is the various forums at
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751

[Rhynri]

They make wraparound block heaters (some have sticky sides) that you could use, I know I had one on my old Jetta because the previous owner was too stupid to fix the glowplugs. It could heat the engine block up to Operating temperature. That might help you there.

[coachgeo]

They make wraparound block heaters (some have sticky sides) that you could use, I know I had one on my old Jetta because the previous owner was too stupid to fix the glowplugs. It could heat the engine block up to Operating temperature. That might help you there.

Not a bad idea if your in position to plug up. My Lp fired unit came to me cause often one is NOT in position to plug up such as after a long day at work where the bike has sat in an open parking lot. Thought was to go out... fire up the LP unit, Go back in, Finish last 1/2hr? of work then put on your riding gear, head out, fire her up on blend and awayyyyy ya go.

[Rhynri]

My only concern with that is theft of the unit and local regulation concerning. Another option would be to have an optional mount battery box, then plug that battery in when you get back home. I had a bike that always had a trickle charger on it anyway, weak alternator (bad brushes, I suspect) and no money to replace it, and that worked for me, they make screw-down quick plugs for them.

[res0wc18]

the biggest concern would be if it was an-hydrouus or hydrous ethanol. Water and oil dont like to mix well.

[gilburton]

As someone who has dabbled with veg oil in cars it has been generally accepted that it works best in indirect engines i.e. older car engines.
As far as I am aware most industrial engines are direct injection.
Most people who have tried to run veg oil on here have not had much success in the long term causing failures.

[coachgeo]

As someone who has dabbled with veg oil in cars it has been generally accepted that it works best in indirect engines i.e. older car engines.
As far as I am aware most industrial engines are direct injection.
Most people who have tried to run veg oil on here have not had much success in the long term causing failures.

Kubota Super Mini diesels are IDI

http://www.edi-dist.com/images/pdf/super_mini.pdf