3800RPM + ???

[Stuart]

If we’re ever going to make motorcycles that are more acceptable to everyone then we’re going to have to up our game and increase the top speed of our bikes. That means identifying engines that deliver more than 3800rpm.

To that end I’m starting this thread to see if we could collect and post details of any suitable diesel engines we know of that exceed this limit. Obviously we don’t want any engines of too large a capacity but it should be open to those employing either mechanical or electronic injection methods.

Thought it might be good to see all these engines all in one place and stimulate thinking along these lines. It might even end up being the basis of a web page.

[bhtooefr]

On that topic, is there a Wiki on this server? That could help with compiling lots of data about various engines, motorcycles, transmissions, CVTs, etc., etc.

So, two engines I can think of off the top of my head:

Lombardini LDW 442 CRS
Injection system: Common rail
Cooling: Water
Layout: Inline 2, 360 degree crank
Displacement: 440 cc (68.0x60.6)
Induction: Naturally aspirated
Valvetrain: SOHC, 2v/cyl, timing belt
Compression ratio: 20:1
Horsepower: 11.5 hp (8.5 kW) @ 4400
Torque: 21.0 Nm (15.5 ft-lbf) @ 2200
Weight: 70 kg (154 lbs) including CVT and reduction/FNR/differential - less without it

Mercedes-Benz OM660
Injection system: Common rail
Cooling: Water
Layout: Inline 3
Displacement: 799 cc (65.5x79.0)
Induction: Turbocharged
Valvetrain: SOHC, 2v/cyl, timing chain
Compression ratio: 18.5:1
Horsepower: 40 hp (30 kW) @ 4200, 44 hp (33 kW) @ 3800, 54 hp (40 kW) @ 3800
Torque: 100 Nm (74 ft-lbf) @ 1700, 110 Nm (81 ft-lbf) @ 2000, 130 Nm (96 ft-lbf) @ 2100
Weight: ??? Somewhere around 100-150 lbs, IIRC
Application: 1st-gen Smart ForTwo (40 hp,) 2nd-gen Smart ForTwo (44, 54 hp)

[Stuart]

Slight step back I know and not that modern, but still, an automotive engine that gets up to 4800rpm and has been used to create some fast if long,motorcycles.

1979 Daihatsu Charade Diesel Turbo

Bore × stroke 76.00 mm × 73.00 mm
2.99 in × 2.87 in
Cylinders Inline 3
Displacement 1 litre
993 cc
(60.597 cu in)
Type SOHC
2 valves per cylinder
6 valves in total
Compression ratio 21.50:1
Fuel system Nippondenso Bosch fuel inj.
Maximum power
DIB 50.7 PS (50 bhp) (37.3 kW)
@ 4800 rpm
Specific output
DIB 50.4 bhp/litre
0.83 bhp/cu in
Maximum torque
DIB 91.0 Nm (67 ft·lb) (9.3 kgm)
@ 2900 rpm
bmep 1151.6 kPa (167 psi)
Specific torque
DIB 91.64 Nm/litre
Manufacturer Daihatsu
Main crankshaft bearings 4
Bore/stroke ratio 1.04
Unitary capacity 331 cc per cylinder
Aspiration Turbo D.
Compressor type 1 IHI turbo

[bhtooefr]

Here's another option, for 3800 RPM...

Ruggerini F25 (Marine outboard version of MD191)
Injection system: Mechanical
Cooling: Air
Layout: Inline 2, 180? degree crank
Displacement: 851 cc (85.0x75.0)
Induction: Naturally aspirated
Valvetrain: Cam-in-block, 2v/cyl
Compression ratio: 19:1 for MD191
Horsepower: 23 hp (17 kW) @ 3800
Torque: 63 Nm (46.5 ft-lbf) @ 2500
Weight: 80 kg (176 lbs) including CVT and reduction/FNR/differential - most likely 63 kg (139 pounds) without

That thing is a freaking torque monster...

[Nanko]

Peugeot TUD5
dry weight 110 kilo/240 lbs
heigth 58cm/23"
length 47cm/18.5"
width 42cm/16.5"
max. torque 86 ft-lbf/117 nM
max. rpm 5000
max. power 57 HP/42 KW

Used in:
citroen AX , SAXO
peugeot 106
rover METRO
nissan MICRA
avg fuelconsumption in 310 kilo motorbike
1:30 l/ km , 3,3L/100KM

[mr chips]

The engine in my trike:
Peugeot XUD7TE
1769cc
Indirect injection, compression ratio 22/1
turbocharged & intercooled
Max speed 4300 rpm
Max power 64.9 kW / 87 bhp, max torque 177Nm / 130.5 lb/ft @2100 rpm
Dry weight 150kg!!
Cast iron block, light alloy head.

Many Peugeot XUD engine specs for 1.7, 1.9 and 2.2 litre engines available from this pdf:
http://www.engine-cemberci.com/engine/PEUGEOT/4.pdf
A big advantage of these engines is that they're very simple electronically, no ECU, just one wire AFAIR. Also pretty robust, just make sure they don't overheat & they should outlast you.

Also check other info here
http://www.engine-cemberci.com/engine/PEUGEOT/6.pdf
and here
http://www.engine-cemberci.com/engine/PEUGEOT/3.pdf
- although that last list may not be comprehensive. I found those links years ago & can't remember how/where, so I'm afraid that's all I've got!

[bhtooefr]

It appears that there's a 17.7 hp @ 4300 RPM version of the Lombardini LDW 702, as used in the Arctic Cat 700 diesel.

So, specs are a mix of Arctic Cat and Lombardini...

Lombardini LDW 702 (in Arctic Cat application)
Injection system: Mechanical (FOCS)
Cooling: Water
Layout: Inline 2, 360? degree crank
Displacement: 686 cc (75.0x77.6)
Induction: Naturally aspirated
Valvetrain: SOHC, 2v/cyl, timing belt
Compression ratio: 22.8:1 for 3600 rpm model
Horsepower: 17.7 hp (13.2 kW) @ 4300
Torque: ~40 Nm (29.5 ft-lbf) @ 2250
Weight: 66 kg (146 lbs)

[IgorVigor]

Since the Peugeot 1.8TD was mentioned, there is the 1.9TD from the 306


Daihatsu Hijet 1.2 Diesel may be of some interest

Ford Endura 1.8 Diesel/turbo diesel/turbo intercooled diesel


and what about the Aixam diesel:
the Kubota Z482-E two-cylinder 500cc

Z482-E
Vertical, 4-cycle liquid-cooled diesel
Number of Cylinders - 2
Bore x Stroke in.(mm) 2.64 x 2.68 (67 x 68)
Total Displacement cu.in.(cc) 29.23 (479)
Combustion System Spherical (E-TVCS)
SAE Net Intermittent HP HP/rpm 12.5 / 3600
SAE Net Continuous HP HP/rpm 10.8 / 3600
No Load High Idling Speed rpm 3800
No Load Low Idling Speed rpm 800
Governing Centrifugal flyweight mechanical type governor
Dry Weight with rear-end plate lbs.(kg) 117 (53)
Dry Weight with SAE flywheel housing lbs.(kg) 179 (81)

[Byrdman]

Yanmar D36 and D27 inline triples.

These are all aluminum, direct injected engine that were used in Yanmar's outboard boat engines.

They are simply an awesome engine and spin up to 4600rpm.

http://www.yanmar.com.au/marine/d_serie ... ifications

[Sphere]

Ouch: http://www.allboats.com/nl/5266238/d27- ... ngine.html ~5keuro

I also came across this nice little 100hp engine, but it's not 3800+rpm
http://www.dair.co.uk/

[bhtooefr]

A lot of engines are rated for a max RPM of 3800, but I suspect that engines that have their power peak at 3800+ are more interesting.

That Yanmar D27 looks very, very interesting, although I do see a couple issues with it, namely:
Direct seawater cooling - might be possible to work around that, though
Vertical mount - how's the sump handled? That'll affect a motorcycle installation. (If it's dry sump, awesome.)

27 horsepower out of a compact 800cc triple without even needing a turbo is quite nice.

[bhtooefr]

This engine tune doesn't actually exist, but I believe it's possible, using parts that already exist (with the possible exception of the injection pump, but really, that'll just affect emissions.) I'm using both stock and modified figures. I don't have a weight figure, though. Modified figures are stolen from the Tata Indica V2 DLS, cut in half when appropriate - the Tata Ace's engine is half of the Indica's engine, which is why I think this will work.

"This" would be modifying the injection pump, injectors, and yes, potentially internals, on the Ace engine, to match the RPM and fueling curves of the Indica engine.

Tata 275 IDI NA
Injection system stock: Mechanical Lucas rotary pump
Injection system modified: Electronic rotary pump, possibly Lucas
Cooling: Water
Layout: Inline 2, 180 degree crank, it looks like
Displacement: 703 cc (75x79.4)
Induction: Naturally aspirated
Valvetrain: SOHC, 2v/cyl, timing belt
Compression ratio: 22:1? (that's correct for the engine I'm targeting, can't find stock numbers, but this means that the parts exist)
Horsepower stock: 16 hp (11.9 kW) @ 3200
Horsepower modified: 26.5 hp (19.8 kW) @ 5500
Torque stock: 38 Nm (28 ft-lbf) @ 2000
Torque modified: 42.5 Nm (31.3 ft-lbf) @ 2500

Double the HP modified and torque modified numbers if a 1.4L 4-cylinder is preferable, because that's what I stole those numbers from.

[Sphere]

Lupo 1.2 diesel,hxwxl 70 32 46. Pretty sleek, but stands pretty tall.

[XLerate]

Thinking along the same lines: I've installed a Cummins 4BT in my vintage Dodge truck. Added an air-to-air [1990 Dodge Cummins 6BTA] intercooler & tweaked the Bosch VE [mechanical direct injection] pump's fueling screws, also adding a 3,200 rpm governor spring to raise max rpms from stock 2,800. Springs for this VE pump are available up to 4,200 & 4,800 rpm.

Also modified my stock H1C Holset turbo [non-wastegated] by changing to HTT Stage III compressor wheel [inducer] at 58mm [8 blade WH1E] & housing [exducer] at HY35 76mm, with 12cm2 exhaust to get it up to HX35/HY35 specs & fairly fast spooling. This turbo mod is good to 215 HP on 4BT. Those tweaks took me from 105 HP / 300 ft lbs torque to about 145 HP / 375+ ft lbs torque. I know of several Cummins 4BT engines that have been modified up to 400++ HP & 800-900++ ft lbs torque, all out of a 3.9L/239 cubic inch engine!

I've asked on board here which pumps are used on various engines to try & determine which ones are better candidates for modifying fuel curve & max governed speed. Could open up all kinds of possibilities.

[AppRenticE]

Excuse if this post isn't on same lines as the topic. I've read that in theory IDI engines rev more than DI engines, usually to 4.5k rpm levels. Any one know of such a single cyl engine which is (can be) put for motorcycle use ?

cheers..

[bhtooefr]

The problem is that most production small-displacement IDI engines are meant for generator applications, and aren't built to take high RPM.

Also, IDI engines are almost always watercooled, which is something that single-cylinder engines tend to avoid. Not a bad thing, but something to consider. (IDI engines have thermal efficiency issues that cause a lot of heat to be lost in the head, and watercooling is the best way to get that much heat out of the head.)

But, an IDI can probably take overrevving better than a DI engine, simply due to having much lighter pistons. Timing may need to be changed, as well as a camshaft regrind if you're going really crazy (because these engines will be optimized for low-RPM performance, and will have trouble breathing at high RPM, when stock).