Visser deletes about Hatz
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Visser deletes about Hatz
I too have one of these machines and it's used oil very quickly from day one to this. I have to fill her up every few hundred without fail or else. Suspect the rings were shot as she's burning oil out the back - you can smell it.
I also have the silicon seal on the cylinder weeping oil on me now. Funnily enough she's going better than ever and seems to get faster everytime I ride her. But I swear that's to do with the http://www.broquet.co.uk/ in the tank.
I too enquired about getting the oil leaks sorted and a Hatz mechanic suggested it would be cheaper to get a new engine. I may rebuild it over the winter if I have time.
You could always make a detailed list of questions and submit them to Alan at Charnwood. I think it was he who was behind the dieselbikes. And I heard they shipped the odd one to Canada.
I also have the silicon seal on the cylinder weeping oil on me now. Funnily enough she's going better than ever and seems to get faster everytime I ride her. But I swear that's to do with the http://www.broquet.co.uk/ in the tank.
I too enquired about getting the oil leaks sorted and a Hatz mechanic suggested it would be cheaper to get a new engine. I may rebuild it over the winter if I have time.
You could always make a detailed list of questions and submit them to Alan at Charnwood. I think it was he who was behind the dieselbikes. And I heard they shipped the odd one to Canada.
Stuart. M1030M1, Honda NC700S, Grom!, Toyota Corolla 1.4 Turbo Diesel. Favouring MPG over MPH.
- thundercougarfalconbird
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hatz diesel engine
it seems hatz has some issues with the IB series engine, one being the amount of oil the sump holds and how much oil they consume. my personal experience with an Ib40 was on a 4" water pump , it was run very low on oil and pounded the rod bearing right out, i think the engineers got a little full of themselves when they design this engine, things like mounting the oil pump half way up the block with an extreamly long suction tube seems like poor spot for it not to mention the over complicated govenor linkage inside. on the plus side they do force air from the cooling fan into the airbox.
Maybe adding and additional oil sump would be a fix, parts are very ,very expensive, thus the engine is not worth repair.
The engineers need to keep things simple.
Maybe adding and additional oil sump would be a fix, parts are very ,very expensive, thus the engine is not worth repair.
The engineers need to keep things simple.
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Hatz
Sorry to hear about your Engine they are all noisy but should not be too hard to fix.You can replace the big end shells easily and the little end is not much harder,
I doubt it is not possible to repair fairly cheaply.
Put some oil in it and run it you can not make it worse the noise might go away.
I check my oil every time I go out and usually when I arrive, but of late with the reduced leakage it has not been too bad.
I could do with a larger sump as it only carries a couple of pints of oil so it is critical to keep it topped up.
I had nearly a year of constant niggles with my engine but it has done the last 3 months with little trouble.
Do not get discouraged it is only an engine do not let it beat you You are the master.
Bob
I doubt it is not possible to repair fairly cheaply.
Put some oil in it and run it you can not make it worse the noise might go away.
I check my oil every time I go out and usually when I arrive, but of late with the reduced leakage it has not been too bad.
I could do with a larger sump as it only carries a couple of pints of oil so it is critical to keep it topped up.
I had nearly a year of constant niggles with my engine but it has done the last 3 months with little trouble.
Do not get discouraged it is only an engine do not let it beat you You are the master.
Bob
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What a bummer . Well it's hard to tell somebody to do this or that as it will take some alterations and machining/fabrication etc to do the conversion.
Now if your into doing some converting I have to say the 406cc L100 clones seem to be a good engine for the price. My bike has 11000 K's on it, doesn't use any oil between changes and cops a floggin' .
Strumby has answered the sprocket question, looks like a renolds taperlock, but don't hold me to it .
First step I guess would be to find how much damage has been done to the engine, it might just need some bearings, a hone of the cylinder and a fresh set of rings and gaskets.
Keep us posted how you go hey!
Now if your into doing some converting I have to say the 406cc L100 clones seem to be a good engine for the price. My bike has 11000 K's on it, doesn't use any oil between changes and cops a floggin' .
Strumby has answered the sprocket question, looks like a renolds taperlock, but don't hold me to it .
First step I guess would be to find how much damage has been done to the engine, it might just need some bearings, a hone of the cylinder and a fresh set of rings and gaskets.
Keep us posted how you go hey!
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parts
Whilst the clone is reasonable dont forget you will probably spend double that fitting it and making alterations.
You should be able to get parts on ebay for your hatz they come up quite often.
You probably only need big end bearings and a gasket set.If the engine did not sieze I doubt you harmed the cylinder or rings.Have you had a look or are you just surmising what damage you have done.
Remember these engines are designed to run in ambient temeratures of 50celsius or more and run in dirty sandy conditions all day pumping water or whatever it is connected to.
Before you give up on it take off the sump and see if there is any metal in there.If the oil looks silvery then you need new bearings for the big end.
Then have a look at the Big ends you can get at them from the Sump.
These are agricultural diesels no real engineering required even I managed mine and i am useless.
Bob
You should be able to get parts on ebay for your hatz they come up quite often.
You probably only need big end bearings and a gasket set.If the engine did not sieze I doubt you harmed the cylinder or rings.Have you had a look or are you just surmising what damage you have done.
Remember these engines are designed to run in ambient temeratures of 50celsius or more and run in dirty sandy conditions all day pumping water or whatever it is connected to.
Before you give up on it take off the sump and see if there is any metal in there.If the oil looks silvery then you need new bearings for the big end.
Then have a look at the Big ends you can get at them from the Sump.
These are agricultural diesels no real engineering required even I managed mine and i am useless.
Bob
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help
Take off the sump it is held in place by Bolts then you can see more in the engine and can if it is like mine remove the connecting rod and check the bearings.
If you remove the sumpo and something falls out then you will at least know what it is.
Bob
If you remove the sumpo and something falls out then you will at least know what it is.
Bob
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sump
If you look at the bottom of the engine there should be a pan where the oil sits if you drain the oil it is bolt you take out well that bolt is in a pan you can remove.
If you want to take the plate you mention off you can see more in there as well.
Bob
If you want to take the plate you mention off you can see more in there as well.
Bob
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removal
If I were you I would get a manual. You will find lots of information in the works Manual.
I was lucky in that someone had my model in electronic form and they downloaded it to me.
On my engine having removed the 10 allen screws holding the side plate on the bearing slips over the shaft carefully and the side comes off.
I am also fortunate in that the oil is contained in a sump pam at the Bottom which also comes off and allows access to the Big end.
Bob
I was lucky in that someone had my model in electronic form and they downloaded it to me.
On my engine having removed the 10 allen screws holding the side plate on the bearing slips over the shaft carefully and the side comes off.
I am also fortunate in that the oil is contained in a sump pam at the Bottom which also comes off and allows access to the Big end.
Bob
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Just my dumb opinion, but I'd keep the Hatz, even though it may cost some $$ to fix. That is of course if it isn't too thrashed. I have a Hatz E79 that I bought for my bike- I've seen the Changfa and other of the "clone" engines at shows lately and they don't near measure up to the quality of the castings, finish, etc. on the Hatz. If what's on the outside reflects what is on the inside, the Hatz looks like it should outlast the others. Of course there are probably quite a few dozens of bikes and other vehicles build with the Changfa (including Crazy Jerry's famous Changzuki which has been on the road as a daily driver for years!) and these people probably swear by them.
My engine so far runs fine (but not yet on the bike) but I had so many nagging questions that I broke the bank and bought both the operator's manual and service manual on eBay. I paid half for the manuals what I paid for the engine! But in my opinion it was well worth it, as I plan on keeping the bike forever when it is done, and I count the manual as an investment.
The Hatz factory website has "free" downloadable parts manuals for all engines, and owner's manuals for some, there are part numbers but unfortunatly keeping with modern "global" traditions there are no word parts descriptions so it is a little difficult (at least for me) to figure out.
In my opinion a set of undersize con rod shells and grinding the crankshaft to fit should be not too expensive if that's all it needs, plus the required gaskets.
If I remember right you are in the Great White North, here is the info on the Canadian Hatz dealers who could help with parts, but of course if you can find what you need on eBay it would probably be cheaper:
International Power Systems Inc.
2875 Portland Drive
Oakville, ON L6H 5S4
Ph: 905/829-2140
Toll: 877/477-3353
Fax: 905/829-2145
Sales: cbrooks@ipspower.com
Parts: skassam@ipspower.com
Web site: www.ipspower.com
Sub-Dealer
Alberta Diesel, Div. Of Industrial
Engines, Ltd.
14355 – 120th Avenue NW
Edmonton, AB T5L 2R8
Ph: 780/466-8335
Toll: 1-888-887-0008
Fax: 780/465-9666
E-mail:
adobler@industrialengines.ca
Web site: www.albertadiesel.com
Sub-Dealer
Marindustriel, Div. Of Nadco
8550 Delmeade
Montreal, QC H4T 1L7
Ph: 514/342-2748
Fax: 514/342-6151
E-mail: info-quebec@marind.ca
Sub-Dealer
Industrial Engines Limited
1020 Cliveden Avenue
Annacis Island, Delta, BC
V3M 5R5
Ph: 604/525-8529
Fax: 604/525-0974
E-mail: iel@radiant.net
Good luck and I hope you can fix it soon while there is still good riding weather left!
My engine so far runs fine (but not yet on the bike) but I had so many nagging questions that I broke the bank and bought both the operator's manual and service manual on eBay. I paid half for the manuals what I paid for the engine! But in my opinion it was well worth it, as I plan on keeping the bike forever when it is done, and I count the manual as an investment.
The Hatz factory website has "free" downloadable parts manuals for all engines, and owner's manuals for some, there are part numbers but unfortunatly keeping with modern "global" traditions there are no word parts descriptions so it is a little difficult (at least for me) to figure out.
In my opinion a set of undersize con rod shells and grinding the crankshaft to fit should be not too expensive if that's all it needs, plus the required gaskets.
If I remember right you are in the Great White North, here is the info on the Canadian Hatz dealers who could help with parts, but of course if you can find what you need on eBay it would probably be cheaper:
International Power Systems Inc.
2875 Portland Drive
Oakville, ON L6H 5S4
Ph: 905/829-2140
Toll: 877/477-3353
Fax: 905/829-2145
Sales: cbrooks@ipspower.com
Parts: skassam@ipspower.com
Web site: www.ipspower.com
Sub-Dealer
Alberta Diesel, Div. Of Industrial
Engines, Ltd.
14355 – 120th Avenue NW
Edmonton, AB T5L 2R8
Ph: 780/466-8335
Toll: 1-888-887-0008
Fax: 780/465-9666
E-mail:
adobler@industrialengines.ca
Web site: www.albertadiesel.com
Sub-Dealer
Marindustriel, Div. Of Nadco
8550 Delmeade
Montreal, QC H4T 1L7
Ph: 514/342-2748
Fax: 514/342-6151
E-mail: info-quebec@marind.ca
Sub-Dealer
Industrial Engines Limited
1020 Cliveden Avenue
Annacis Island, Delta, BC
V3M 5R5
Ph: 604/525-8529
Fax: 604/525-0974
E-mail: iel@radiant.net
Good luck and I hope you can fix it soon while there is still good riding weather left!
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manual
http://www.multiquip.com/multiquip/pdfs ... manual.pdf Here is alink alink for a cement mixer with a hatz engine it gives some engine details ignore the mixer part.
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But in fact you only got 1200 milesvisser wrote:Thanks Joe and Bob for all of the info....
My preference now, thanks to Bob changing my mind, is to get this Hatz running again... provided there is not much wrong with it. I don't like trashing things before their time and this engine only had 1200 miles on it.
About Chinese Engines though... I lived in Indonesia a few years back, and a Chinese businessman buddy of mine stated: "For an Engine, the Chinese are getting better, but I would still go with Japanese or Western Engines simply because they use a higher grade of metal alloys than the Chinese and will be more reliable and last longer." To me, the Chinese engines have a disposable nature to them. If I installed one in my bike and got 2 or 3 years out of it, the $469 paid for it would be a bargain. However, if I look after this Hatz and I get 10, 15, or 20 years out of it... that would be a better bargain.
I suspect whichever engine you buy, they will mostly be satisfactory... But by charging more for their engines, hatz make it look like it is worthwhile repairing them. Consider what would you do if your bike originally was fitted with a $469 clone? Why would that be different to the original hatz?
Larry
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Engines
Visser is right in that it does not matter what engine you get good service from.
However what was originally said was buy the Clone for $469 then spend another $500 to fit it in and then you have spent $1000 however repair the Hatz for $100 then put it back and you have saved $900.
The analogy used about looking good could be put to the Old Harley Davidsons they looked good but you had an old agricultural engine that needed fixing every few hundred miles.
I do not care what they look like within certain bounds just so long as it works as well as I need.
The Hatz is a good engine I saw one today an IB30 at a Rally not my Freinds but a stranger.
He reckoned he could get 100KPH and 120MPG or more if he stuck to 80KPH. He had no trouble with his and had done in excess of 30,000 miles.
However what was originally said was buy the Clone for $469 then spend another $500 to fit it in and then you have spent $1000 however repair the Hatz for $100 then put it back and you have saved $900.
The analogy used about looking good could be put to the Old Harley Davidsons they looked good but you had an old agricultural engine that needed fixing every few hundred miles.
I do not care what they look like within certain bounds just so long as it works as well as I need.
The Hatz is a good engine I saw one today an IB30 at a Rally not my Freinds but a stranger.
He reckoned he could get 100KPH and 120MPG or more if he stuck to 80KPH. He had no trouble with his and had done in excess of 30,000 miles.
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!00KPH
He told me that he had fitted a sprocket with an extra tooth and most important of all he had cleaned up the inlet port and exhaust port .
Then he had cut and lengthened the rocker arms so they give more valve opening for the same camshaft lift.
He reckoned it gave another 20 KPH.
Bob
Then he had cut and lengthened the rocker arms so they give more valve opening for the same camshaft lift.
He reckoned it gave another 20 KPH.
Bob
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expensive hatz parts
im sure you will find the crankshaft and con rod will be damaged and need to be replaced, we had a 1b40 hatz at our shop thatwas run low on oil, and after pricing the parts it went home in a box, crankshaft was $1172, con rod $349, rod bearing std, $47.80, only one undersize rod bearing available, and it jumps to $94.35, kinda crazy.
this engine had about 12 hours runtime, and the piston rings were past spec, not sure what the people at hatz are doing for measurments and quality control.
best thing you can do is take it apart , price your parts and make a reasonable decision.
the clone engines if you check a few things and get all the yak fat out of them befor you start will run for a long time.
best of luck with the bike
this engine had about 12 hours runtime, and the piston rings were past spec, not sure what the people at hatz are doing for measurments and quality control.
best thing you can do is take it apart , price your parts and make a reasonable decision.
the clone engines if you check a few things and get all the yak fat out of them befor you start will run for a long time.
best of luck with the bike
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If your crank hasn't been overheated the rod journal could probably be reground to an undersize (not too expensive) or if it has been beated up too bad without overheating the rod journal could be built up with weld or "sprayed on" metal and reground very $$$$ but cheaper than a new crank. This is commonly done on aircraft engines. If it has been overheated (blue or straw colors around journal), it may be warped, in any event I'd have the crank checked for straightness before putting all those expensive parts in it and pulling the rope-
I think the main bearnings are rollers that can go with just a little film of oil for a short while and may be OK. Hopefully the rod isn't damaged at all.
As a comparison, I just got the service manual for my Hatz E79 (I guess Hatz goes along with $$$$). It holds only 1 litre of oil in the sump, but the oil consumption on a "new" engine is listed as up to .2 litres in 10 hours! Heck, that's just a day of riding, doesn't take long to run it low enough to kill it. It says as long as the oil is checked daily it can be run regardless and the consumption will be normalised on 100 to 200 hours. That's more than 1,000 miles on a diesel bike! I forgot what the normal "broken in" oil consumption is listed as, but it is still quite high, more than one would ever normally expect from a motorcycle but really what we are talking about is "construction equipment"!
I figured out that it would cost me more to rebuild the Hatz E79 (if the crank was still good) than to rebuild the VW Diesel in my '85 Jetta (which I'm now doing).
Good luck with whatever you do, please be sure to keep us all posted. Hopefully it won't be too expensive or take too long, usually my repair projects are both!
I think the main bearnings are rollers that can go with just a little film of oil for a short while and may be OK. Hopefully the rod isn't damaged at all.
As a comparison, I just got the service manual for my Hatz E79 (I guess Hatz goes along with $$$$). It holds only 1 litre of oil in the sump, but the oil consumption on a "new" engine is listed as up to .2 litres in 10 hours! Heck, that's just a day of riding, doesn't take long to run it low enough to kill it. It says as long as the oil is checked daily it can be run regardless and the consumption will be normalised on 100 to 200 hours. That's more than 1,000 miles on a diesel bike! I forgot what the normal "broken in" oil consumption is listed as, but it is still quite high, more than one would ever normally expect from a motorcycle but really what we are talking about is "construction equipment"!
I figured out that it would cost me more to rebuild the Hatz E79 (if the crank was still good) than to rebuild the VW Diesel in my '85 Jetta (which I'm now doing).
Good luck with whatever you do, please be sure to keep us all posted. Hopefully it won't be too expensive or take too long, usually my repair projects are both!
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I got the dimensions for the v-twin from the MGS website, it looks like it would be a bit too tight for the Bullet frame. (from what I can remember back 40 years or so!) That Enfield Thumper had a pretty short engine, front-to-back if I'm right. Probably a Yanclone would fit OK, you can get the dimensions/drawing from their website.
I've got to stretch the frame on my Suzuki anyway (want to lower the seat and shocks "hardtail style" so I sit lower and make more room for a v-twin some day) but I wouldn't go too far with your Enfield. If you put a 'clone in it, I'd go with the single 10HP and be done with it. With that it'll just be welding up some different mounts, changing over the primary sprocket and hooking up throttle, wiring, fuel line, etc. (easier said than done, it's always the little last minute things that are "OH S&$T!" with me) Otherwise it'll really be a project, especially if you have someone else do the work.
I've got to stretch the frame on my Suzuki anyway (want to lower the seat and shocks "hardtail style" so I sit lower and make more room for a v-twin some day) but I wouldn't go too far with your Enfield. If you put a 'clone in it, I'd go with the single 10HP and be done with it. With that it'll just be welding up some different mounts, changing over the primary sprocket and hooking up throttle, wiring, fuel line, etc. (easier said than done, it's always the little last minute things that are "OH S&$T!" with me) Otherwise it'll really be a project, especially if you have someone else do the work.
Visser,
Great news on the crank. Fingers crossed the importer does right by you.
With regards to sticking the v-twin in it check out the dieselbike.net website. Someones put one in an Enfield ( I think its called The Beckendorf) I cant recall details though, like whether the frame was stretched or not.
Cheers
Great news on the crank. Fingers crossed the importer does right by you.
With regards to sticking the v-twin in it check out the dieselbike.net website. Someones put one in an Enfield ( I think its called The Beckendorf) I cant recall details though, like whether the frame was stretched or not.
Cheers
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Well Done
Good news I hope you get a new crank I have never heard of such a thing it can only have been cracked to begin with.
I suppose it is possible that it was not straight but that would be down to the original builders.
Glad to see you are getting somewhere.
I actually managed to kick start mine today I have never had the Knack and have always used the Electric foot but today it started first Kick.
The amount of oil it uses is getting less as it runs in and I have no qualms about doing a fair mileage on it now but it has taken a while to get to this stage, like you I have had a catalogue of problems but have stuck to my original contention it is only a machine and it will do what I tell it.
Bob
I suppose it is possible that it was not straight but that would be down to the original builders.
Glad to see you are getting somewhere.
I actually managed to kick start mine today I have never had the Knack and have always used the Electric foot but today it started first Kick.
The amount of oil it uses is getting less as it runs in and I have no qualms about doing a fair mileage on it now but it has taken a while to get to this stage, like you I have had a catalogue of problems but have stuck to my original contention it is only a machine and it will do what I tell it.
Bob
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Yeah that is not a common problem = Damn crank breaking so early, all it takes is a flaw in the metal at casting and they can let go. Would be interesting to find the cause.
Diahatsu had a problem with cranks breaking in there 4 cylinder diesels back in the early nineties. Many a Diahatsu Rocky 4WD met the fate of a broken crank.
Fingers crossed they will come to the party and repair the engine at cost, even better to see the engine repaired for free due to manufacturing fault.
Keep us posted
Diahatsu had a problem with cranks breaking in there 4 cylinder diesels back in the early nineties. Many a Diahatsu Rocky 4WD met the fate of a broken crank.
Fingers crossed they will come to the party and repair the engine at cost, even better to see the engine repaired for free due to manufacturing fault.
Keep us posted
Hope you manage to get back on the road as soon as poss - it's very frustrating when the bike is sat in the garage and unusable.
With regard to your question on Charles' bike and the changing of the spring tension - this is something very specific to the Yanmar/clone engine and how the throttle/governor works. It works on a balancing principle - i.e. the more tension/force you put onto the governor arm (through the throttle linkage and connecting spring) then the faster the engine has to run to balance it. The throttle and governor arms have a series of holes in them radiating out from the central axis so the further out you put the springs the more force you can exert on the governor arm and thus the faster the engine will run. For a clearer understanding of what I'm talking about have a look in the files section of http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Die ... ike_World/ - go to 'Yanmar engine information' section and then download the 'Yanmar fuel govenor details.doc'. You'll get a nice clear view of what I'm talking about here. On Yan-clone Enfields that lot is sandwiched between the engine and gearbox and is a bugger to get to!
I believe the injection pump stroke setting is the third adjuster in the above equation (also indicated in the document I mentioned) which limits max fuelling. It's adjusted so the bike injects as little as possible whilst retaining the same power - keeps economy up and smoke down.
I think the question you need to ask (and there's people here like Stuart who can answer) is how best to adjust the governor/settings on the Hatz engine. I wouldn't have a clue and they might all work completely differently from above!
Best of luck and let us know how you get on...
Dan
With regard to your question on Charles' bike and the changing of the spring tension - this is something very specific to the Yanmar/clone engine and how the throttle/governor works. It works on a balancing principle - i.e. the more tension/force you put onto the governor arm (through the throttle linkage and connecting spring) then the faster the engine has to run to balance it. The throttle and governor arms have a series of holes in them radiating out from the central axis so the further out you put the springs the more force you can exert on the governor arm and thus the faster the engine will run. For a clearer understanding of what I'm talking about have a look in the files section of http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Die ... ike_World/ - go to 'Yanmar engine information' section and then download the 'Yanmar fuel govenor details.doc'. You'll get a nice clear view of what I'm talking about here. On Yan-clone Enfields that lot is sandwiched between the engine and gearbox and is a bugger to get to!
I believe the injection pump stroke setting is the third adjuster in the above equation (also indicated in the document I mentioned) which limits max fuelling. It's adjusted so the bike injects as little as possible whilst retaining the same power - keeps economy up and smoke down.
I think the question you need to ask (and there's people here like Stuart who can answer) is how best to adjust the governor/settings on the Hatz engine. I wouldn't have a clue and they might all work completely differently from above!
Best of luck and let us know how you get on...
Dan
1990 Honda NTV600 Revere