Transmission options for a longitudinaly mounted engine

[pezfallout]

Hi all! I've been reading up for a while and am about ready to begin my project. The wife gave the green light and my jaw just about hit the floor.

I'm wanting to use the Briggs Vanguard 954DT (http://www.commercialpower.com/display/ ... ocID=80488) because of the parts availability in the states and the available horsepower and torque, 34/55. With the right gearing it should get well over 100mpg and still offer some power to maneuver through traffic.

My only real catch is what to do for a transmission. I want to use a chain drive so I need a transmission that can adapt to the back of the crank case and output on the side to attack the sprocket. Or that's what I've come up with so far.

Can anyone help me or let me know what my options are? I'm eager to get on this!

Clayton

[lex]

Hi There,
That's quite an ambitious project (big engine!) most of us here fall into two camps - single cylinder with crank accross the frame or twins and tripples with crank in line with the frame such as the 950 daihatsu engines and the smart engined bikes that you may have seen.

Most of the large engine variants are in frames such as BMW, Depnr, and Motoguzzi where the original transmissions can be used and engine flywheels macined to take the clutch. However these machines are all shafties - are you sure you want chain drive?

If you were to mount the engine accross the frame (could make for a very wide bike) you could use a comet torque converter, but most of these will not handle the higher horse power. Your other option is to find an old two stroke bike engine (250 - 400cc) and cut off the gearbox section rig up a primary drive chain and then experiment with sprocket ratios for the final drive chain. Some of the old brit bikes have separate gear boxes as does the Enfield so maybe you could use one of those. Whatever you do don't bother trying to turn the drive through 90 degrees as the friction losses in bevel gears are terrible.
I hope that helps!
Good luck with your project, and keep us all posted!


Lex

[pezfallout]

Hi Lex,

Thanks for the reply! It is a pretty decent sized engine, I'll admit that. The reason I was wanting to go chain was the drivetrain loss through the shaft. I'm really not opposed to going that route, I'm just not that familiar with it. Are the BMW, etc units divorced from the blocks in a way that could be adapted? I'm trying not to sound to ignorant, because I've been reading up quite a bit lately, but my specialty has always be auto building and bikes are a completely new animal to me!

Honestly, all I want is a 4-6 speed transmission that will allow me to mount the motor inline with the frame and make the rear wheel spin. I'm open to any method so long as it meets to goal.

I love all the conversions I've seen! I just wish everyone in Florida drove a little more consciously so I didn't need interstate speeds on local highways! It's crazy.

[lex]

Hi Clayton,
Have a look at the old threads in the technical section of the forum. Transmission is a topic that has vexed all of us!!!!!!
You will find some good posts by Avery Frail on his D950 engined project that sounds similair to what you have in mind. you will also see how Sumo adapted his flwheel and transmission - have a good old rummage!

I'm afraid there's not much wheel spin activities with CVT drives.

The main issue I have found personally is space in the frame, quite a few people have lengthened the frame to accomodate the transmission. I've cut a two stroke box off the block - it is easily done and will give you six gears, have a look at the project bikes, there is a bike on there where some genius has welded the gear box directly to the diesel block, obviously a person very handy with mig/tig welding!!!!

To be honest I'm going the CVT route soon as poss as the engineering side of things is a bit easier, my bike is not on the road yet but I'm not happy with mountings for the box and clutch and change lever arrangements, I've only got 14hp to amuse myself with so burnouts were never on the agenda for me!!!
Cheers


Lex

[pezfallout]

Oh, I'm sorry! I didn't mean burn outs, lol. I reread my reply and I see that it was rather ambiguous. I just meant the physical movement, as in actually transmitting the power from the motor to the wheel. I'm actually scared of roasting tire on a motorcycle! It's been years since I even rode the Honda 80R dirt bike I sold to buy my first car, so I'm psyching myself back up to get on two wheels, again.

I'll search through the posts you mentioned and hopefully find the solution I need. If nothing else, it can set me on a path I can actually accomplish! (Even if I don't get to use the motor(s) I'd like.)

Cheers!

[lex]

Ha-Ha!
Burnouts! I fear I may have let slip my hooligan tendancies!!
Actually only kidding I'm very sensible these days that's why I'm going down the diesel route
Check the posts, you'll also notice that there are plenty of projects on your side of the pond too, maybe a bit of networking is possible?
Cheers


Lex

[oilburner]

I wonder if the gearbox from a Douglas motorcycle might work, if you can find one. I originally thought about this but figured I'd never find one. IMHO this would be the ideal solution - it would mate to a longitudinally mounted engine and the output shaft is turned 90 degrees for chain drive, allowing selection of sprockets to optimally match the 954DT performance and rpm. However, I'm not sure if the Douglas uses a wet or dry clutch. In any case, you would have to fabricate a bellhousing. Do a search of the forum for various approaches to fabricating a bellhousing.

Edited to add:

Just found a picture of the Douglas clutches and gearbox casings etc. It's a dry clutch and would work with any of the Daihatsu engines including the 954DT:
http://www.kynoch-douglas-parts.com/htm ... utches.htm

[pezfallout]

Did they produce the gearboxes any time in the later part of the 20th century? All the ones I've seen tend to predate my great grand parents. lol

All kidding aside, thanks for the tip! I'll keep my eye out and see if I can find one.

[oldbmw]

Did they produce the gearboxes any time in the later part of the 20th century? All the ones I've seen tend to predate my great grand parents. lol

All kidding aside, thanks for the tip! I'll keep my eye out and see if I can find one.

They may well be a mismatch though, the 1958 works bikes were running at over 10,000 rpm

[pezfallout]

I guess I could destroke an old generator and implant forged pistons and H-beam rods and shotpeen the crank and say a couple of hail marys and maybe it could work!

I might end up trying to source a used Harley gearbox since it looks like I'm going to have to go a different route than the I-3 D954, but I haven't checked on ratios, yet.

[w0lfpack]

I have searched motorcycle grave yards for many years trying to find a suitable tranny setup. I initially thought that my only choices were either going to be an old Harley setup, or an automotive tranny with a suicide shifter setup.


Something I have not heard anything about (yet) is anyone using a BMW inline shaft-drive setup? ...or the like?

I got excited last weekend when browsing one of the wreckers in my area and came across an old Honda CX500 Silverwing. Looks to be in the 1980's vintage. This engine is a V-twin that is mounted inline with the frame, as opposed to the standard transverse mounted Harley setup.

I was actually thinking that this setup would be pretty simply to make up an adapter plate to whatever engine you decide and to the tranny and your whole rear-drive issues are solved.

Now, one would have to research more on the RPM and usable output ratios to see if it would actually make the bike competitive in a street application or not ... but the idea is there. The last thing you want is to be revved out at 3600rpm and in top gear only getting 40mph.

Anyone consider this tranny setup? Thoughts, criticism, other ideas welcome...

[roverthetop]

inline/ shaft bikes are not a good way to go IMHO. finals are difficult and expensive to get cut to get the speed we want. my dnepr inline did 50 mph but didnt like it at all. i have 2 mates that have gone the goldwing route- inline, shafty. one spent near $1000 for his final (after putting a punsun- 22 hp twin- on it, wouldnt do the speed) rather than rework the entire machine. my other mate scrapped the whole thing and is using a different donor altogether. the bevel gears are very special to get done. as my father told me, "speed is just a question of money... how fast do you want to go?" it rings completely true. might be a good chance to try the punsun/ transmission setup, eh fellow dieselheads? i've personally been using either comet cvt, or aftermarket harley 6 spd (ultima) gearboxes. the cvt with jack and bits comes to around $800 USD, ultima was $699 off ebay, primary another $700. enfiels will sell their 5 spd at $599 USD.
bmw, dnepr, cj, ural, all have the gearbox available.
just my $.02 USD.
brett

[visser]

What is the deal with the hydraulic transmission? http://www.hydraulicinnovations.com/

Is that a very expensive/complex way to go, or why aren't more people using it or talking about it?

[Crazymanneil]

I am with roverthetop on the Ultima angle. The nice thing about the harley/custom bike scene is that you think up a problem and the solution is already out there. Different primary ratio, belt drives, chain cases, offset spacers, etc all available.

Admitedly in saying that I am going from the construction experience so far as the bike is not yet running to see if it takes the torque (130N/m) but feels reassuringly heavy.

I like the Hydraulic drive from the point of view that its a bit different but heard they are not as efficient? Look at the size of the radiator on that bad boy in the photos!

Neil

[roverthetop]

from my understanding, the hydraulics are heavy, and very very troublesome. i'm not a hydraulics major, so i choose to stay away from anything i cant easily fix or make myself. too little knowledge, seems too much to go wrong. what happens when they fail? are you stuck in gear? hot oil on your legs? too much smoke to see from the oil on the pipes? good old fashioned gears for me, thanks.

[oilburner]

On Saturday Aug 30,2008 W0lfpack wrote:

Something I have not heard anything about (yet) is anyone using a BMW inline shaft-drive setup? ...or the like?

A considerable number of BMW, Moto Guzzi, and Dnepr diesel conversions have been built and more are under construction - see pictures on the dieselbike.net and dieselkrad.info websites.

Quite a bit of info has been posted on this forum about Moto Guzzi and BMW gearbox modifications to increase the top speed; involves cutting new gears. Check older posts.

BMW type 247 5-speed (1974-1995) with an aftermarket 5 percent taller 5th gear is good for 67 mph @ 3600 rpm. The NLA 10 percent taller 5th gear was good for about 70 mph. A decent BMW 5 speed can usually be had for $300 - $1000.

Dnepr, Ural and similar 2 shaft gearboxes with straight cut gears should be relatively inexpensive to fit with a custom gearset. The website below has custom gearsets of various ratios:
http://motopan.com.ua/foru/korobka_e.htm

The great thing about Moto Guzzi, Ural, Dnepr, and BMW type gearboxes is that they are automotive style and easy to mount, usually requiring only a simple bellhousing and machining of the flywheel to mount the clutch assy.

[roverthetop]

i can tell you from experience, using a lombardini 25ld inline into a dnepr, it was machining the flywheel to fit the taper shaft (easy) and building a bellhousing (easy). then bolt it together. very simple task. oilburner is quite correct.

[thundercougarfalconbird]

looks like a large engine to use, but like anything im sure it can be done, not sure if you are aware but the briggs and stratton branded diesel engines are built by daihatsu, they seem to be a very well made engine, best of luck with the project

[roverthetop]

TCFB,
if you're referring the luck to my dnepr build, i appreciate it but its been finished for a year now.
http://www.dieselbike.net/currentconversions.htm
top end limited by the final, but overall a nice rig.

[focodiesel]

On Saturday Aug 30,2008 W0lfpack wrote:

BMW type 247 5-speed (1974-1995) with an aftermarket 5 percent taller 5th gear is good for 67 mph @ 3600 rpm. The NLA 10 percent taller 5th gear was good for about 70 mph. A decent BMW 5 speed can usually be had for $300 - $1000.

Hello all, I am new. I am starting a slow build, when I get pictures together I will start a build thread. I have a lambordini air cooled twin, about 20hp, also just bought bmw k100 tranny, clutch, swingarm, driveshaft, final drive and rear wheel.

Oilburner, you say there is aftermarket gearsets for bmw? could you point me in the right direction?

Also I have an Idea for a tranny that the output is 90degrees from the input, which could let us put inline motors with a chain. My dad has a 1980's something honda with a v-4 and a driveshaft. Could you somehow seperate the tranny. rotate it and connect the flywheel of the inline diesel to the crankshaft of the honda tranny, than the original tranny output to a drivshaft could be modified to put a drive sprocket. Anyone understand what I'm trying to say?

[mark_in_manchester]

My 2p-worth again here...

Ural gearbox/FD option is really cheap here in UK - don't know about USA. One can buy a working, used Ural gearbox for maybe £30, and a final drive for £15. I guess you'd also need a rear wheel, which might add another £15. Raised (1:1) 4th gears and high ratio (3.2:1) crown-wheel/pinion sets avialable from 'OldtimerGarage' in Poland - good web shop with pictures, English spoken, honest / reliable, international deliveries undertaken! Can't remember costs - maybe £40 for 1:1 4th gear and ~£80(?) for FD gears. Raised gears only needed for a powerful engine - 50bhp Charade TD will pull the above, top speed at 5000rpm=100mph-ish - guess I've seen 90. Less power - use standard russian ratios and save some money! Oh - I guess it would be easiest to use a Ural clutch and flywheel too - UK cost (used) £20-30? Ural and Dnepr components are not the same, but similar (same ratios may not be available, but O.G. in Poland still supply) and costs are similar. If you use a Ural box, an early (pre about 73) one-piece box with inspection plate in the side is much easier to build properly than a later one (splits vertically). If anyone knows how to measure / set up end-float in the later one, I'd like to know - maybe BMW types can advise?

Mark, Manchester UK

[focodiesel]

No Ural's, and dnepr, and royal enfields are all nearly non-existant here in the states.

If the honda tranny I'm talking about would work... Than we could run inline motors (larger diesels) with a chain. Making it easy to change the final ratio. IMHO a sprocket is easier to change than a ring and pinion. especially if the ring and pinion has to be custom machined.

[pietenpol2002]

All a matter of personal preference I suppose, but I much prefer an in-line diesel facing north and south. Somehow just looks proper. However, it can make for a rather long bike. Our friends in Russia who seem to have an unlimited supply of Dneprs and Urals, tend toward the right angle gearbox when desiring either a chain drive or wider tire. You'll see many such examples if you wander around the Russian sites a bit. Below are several examples, but bear in mind that those bevel gears consume something on the order of 11% of your power in the process of turning the corner. Fortunately, the Briggs/Daihatsu should have no shortage of power.

[focodiesel]

I have heard a couple of you on here talk about how much bevel gears waist due to friction heat. How about final drives/ring and pinion. I don't think these waist as much energy as straight cut bevel gears.

Also the only angle gearboxes with straight cut bevel gears I have seen are only rated for like 1500rpm max.

[sbrumby]

On the subject of right angle gears, as energy can neither be created or destroyed, if you were looseing 11% it would be running very hot or be extreamly noisy. If a truck of 500bhp were loosing 11% in the back axel you wouldnt need to salt the roads it would melt the snow.

[cumorglas]

On the subject of right angle gears, as energy can neither be created or destroyed, if you were looseing 11% it would be running very hot or be extreamly noisy. If a truck of 500bhp were loosing 11% in the back axel you wouldnt need to salt the roads it would melt the snow.

that's because properly set up hypoid gears are in the range of 3 to 5 percent loss to friction. when they are set up poorly they are both extremely noisy and extremely hot. for a little while. then they fail catastrophically and create great pictures for the yearly christmas card. i've seen it happen. thankfully not to gears i set up.

i've never seen a ural/dnepr/bmw ring and pinion. are they straight cut bevel, hypoid, or something else entirely?

i have a pile of dana 30/35 r&p sets in 3.55:1. they aren't any use to me on the jeeps. i just can't see throwing them out.

so now this has me contemplating. turn down a carrier to a plate that can bolt to the hub. make a case to hold a pinion bearing, figure out how to seal it. this is starting to sound like more trouble than it's worth.

[Curtis in Texas]

Excuse me, I didn't read every word real close in this thread, but I have to ask!

Why don't you just use a fwd car transmission. Mount the engine longitudinally, like you are planning, with the FWD transmission bolted to the back. The adapter plates should be a no brainer for this group.
Weld up the spider gears in the diff to eliminate them from spinning. Off Road guys do this all the time for a poor mans locker.

The only hard part would be maybe for a carrier bearing for the short output shaft to a motorcycle final dirve shaft. And you may not even need one, if you put a cardian joint in between.
Plug up the other output side. If the axle turns the wrong way you can use a reverse rotation transmission like a Honda. Some transmissions are mounted on the right side of the cars engine bay and some on the left side.

Heck if you used an automatic you'd get reverse out of the deal too. Sure would simplify shifting and since most folks here are thinking Comet anyway. An automatic car transmission makes sense to me. And think about this. Those small FWD tranny have to be effecient because of the little engines that turn them. Plus they move a lot heavier vehicle than a motorcycle.
And if you found one of those paddle shifting transmission you could rig a foot shifter to it to retain the foot sifting feature.

The FWD cars usually use a smaller diameter wheel than a motorcycle, but with the power to weight ratio gain, I don't see as how upping the gearing will be a bad thing.

Course you would have a big bike, but it would be a lot shorter than the Russian Chopper above.
I'm thinking Gold Wing size.

I'm fairly new here and haven't read every conversation, so forgive me if this has been hacked to death!
I have 5 FWD transmission in my shop, and one is a brand new Automatic for a turbo diesel Isuzu.
That's the way I'm leaning for my big Tourer, That is if I can find a Gold Wind with a toasted engine for my 1000cc Honda 3 Cyl Diesel.

[Sphere]

What kind of dimensions are you talking? It seems it will be quite bulky and heavy, even for a Goldwing?

[pietenpol2002]

On the subject of right angle gears, as energy can neither be created or destroyed, if you were looseing 11% it would be running very hot or be extreamly noisy. If a truck of 500bhp were loosing 11% in the back axel you wouldnt need to salt the roads it would melt the snow.

To Sam's point regarding 11% losses in a right angle gearbox, your point is well taken. I should have stated that someone had earlier done the calculations to find that a typical right angle gearbox on our little 10 hp clones would consume about 11% of the available power. I also should have added the disclaimer that my posting included 2 untrustworthy variables - my memory and "information found on the internet".

Not only would the 500 BHP truck be melting the snow in its wake, but the glow from the white hot differential would negate the need for headlights.

Merry Christmas

[chevy43]

I have a Rokon 2 wheel drive 2 stroke 10 hp with 2 right angle gear boxes, 3 chains, a drive shaft with 2 U joints, a jack shaft, and an over run clutch ( to keep the front and rear wheels from binding on turns ) - and it goes pretty well with all that!

Happy new year!