Old Clunker 'Vegefuel' experiments.

[Rhynri]

Unfortunately, it looks like only direct injection engines are suitable to run reliably on renewable vegetable oil based fuels, and engines with Lucas or CAV fuel pumps and injectors are unsuitable, and do not run reliably.
Some older Peugeot and Renault diesel engines have been modified to run on vegetable oil based fuels, but need more modification, and apparently are not as reliable.
At the moment, it appears all new indirect injection engines cannot run reliably on alternative fuels, so it is best to stick with old simple diesel engine technology!

I must admit, you have me confused, good sir. It's the new engines that have the direct injection. The old engines have prechambers, one of the reasons they are so loud and run at lower compression (also largely why glowplugs are required at lower temps).

I'd also have to vote that it's less of a conspiracy and more of the fact that vegetable oil isn't very homogenous, and when you are talking 18.5:1 compression and 30ft/lbs boost (even in a stock engine) having irregular fuel or fuel that doesn't burn cleanly can be devastating to your systems.

Many of these problems can be solved by "methanolizing" the fuel, basically converting it from SVO to bio-diesel (which you can do yourself, there are even machines you can build for about 300$ to automate the process for you). I apologize if I am repeating anything but I was having trouble with the page loading. There is a good guide here: CLICKY!

[old clunker]

After being away from the forum for a few months, at last I've got some time to reply and share my experiences!

Unfortunately, it looks like only direct injection engines are suitable to run reliably on renewable vegetable oil based fuels, and engines with Lucas or CAV fuel pumps and injectors are unsuitable, and do not run reliably.
Some older Peugeot and Renault diesel engines have been modified to run on vegetable oil based fuels, but need more modification, and apparently are not as reliable.
At the moment, it appears all new indirect injection engines cannot run reliably on alternative fuels, so it is best to stick with old simple diesel engine technology!

I must admit, you have me confused, good sir. It's the new engines that have the direct injection. The old engines have prechambers, one of the reasons they are so loud and run at lower compression (also largely why glowplugs are required at lower temps).

I'd also have to vote that it's less of a conspiracy and more of the fact that vegetable oil isn't very homogenous, and when you are talking 18.5:1 compression and 30ft/lbs boost (even in a stock engine) having irregular fuel or fuel that doesn't burn cleanly can be devastating to your systems.

Many of these problems can be solved by "methanolizing" the fuel, basically converting it from SVO to bio-diesel (which you can do yourself, there are even machines you can build for about 300$ to automate the process for you). I apologize if I am repeating anything but I was having trouble with the page loading. There is a good guide here: CLICKY!

Thanks for your thoughts and the interesting link about biofuel production, it's just that may not have seen the insides of small 'Yanclone' diesel engines, and they have been around for many years now. My Suntom CH186F is direct injection into the swirl recess/combustion part of the piston, and no glowplug used, with the the injector directly located at an angle through the cylinder head, and over the piston area.
All small diesels I'm aware of used for motorbikes, appear to have similar construction with no pre-chambers or glowplugs, to keep it simple and cheaper to produce!
They use the effect of having very tight clearance between the top of the piston and the cylinder head to get the high compression pressure required for fuel ignition and combustion.
You'll be able to get an idea of this, when I post how I repaired/got the compression back in my Suntom (Yanclone) engine soon.

As for the running of Diesel engines with vegetable oils, that's what they were originally designed to do. Diesel fuel (heavy fuel oil as it is officially termed) also doesn't burn that cleanly and will slowly clog up engines in time, if routine maintenance is not carried out.
When I've had a close internal look at my Diesel engine, I can see obviously that it's been designed/optimised to run on diesel, with a less robust injector, fuel pump and piston head design than I would have liked, which could have been 'beefed' up by the manufacurers, with an addition of a glow plug in the cylinder head to improve complete combustion of vegetable oil mixes. The problem I have come across is incomplete combustion, due to the piston/combustion area not getting hot enough.

I hope this has answered your questions and made some things a bit clearer!

After being delayed by a major garage roof repair, boat work and repairs, at last I have some time to devote to motorbikes again!
'Clunkie' is just about up and running again, after a week's engine work and hassle bleeding air out of the fuel system. Hope to get a chance to test ride it soon, after a brief ride yesterday, with a frustrating time first getting some fuel to reliably flow to the injector.

[Rhynri]

From reading your post, it reads as though you agree with what I just said. Your engine does not require a glowplug because it is direct injection. Indirect injection was the old way to do things. It's why pre-'85 or so diesels have that *POC POC* ringing sound, especially at idle. One of the best ways to tell if its not specifically listed is Indirect engines are usually about 16:1 and direct are usualy about 18:1 or higher, from what I have seen. By "newer" i mean anything 20years-ish old, basically since VW introduced their TDI engines (TDI being Turbo Direct Injection, of course). It's the golden standard for new diesel tech, but it required computer modeling and some new manufacturing processes to produce successfully, or you run into issues. It's also best done with computer controlled injection. Current DI engines are whisper quiet and can start without glowplugs down to about 40F/4.5C or so. Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

[old clunker]

So summing up the results of my 'Vegefuel' experiments at last. What did I learn from it, and what are the conclusions?
My fuel experiments started in 2011, running for nearly a year, and was started before I joined the forum!
I managed to run the motorbike for just over 550 miles solely on my vegetable oil blends, until the diesel engine suddenly refused to start.
That's the main problem with small diesel engines, they just keep on running up to the very end, with very little warning or complaint that things are about to fail! The main thing I found, was a gradual engine performance drop off, especially at full throttle/revs, and also not running so well at idle. When this happens, it's telling you that it's time to run some diesel injector/engine cleaner, if you get enough time to do so, and then run the engine back on straight diesel for a while, until you find out what's wrong with the 'vegefuel' blend.

There's very little actual reliable information about running small diesel motorbike engines on vegetable oil blends on the web. What there is available, is sketchy information, with no 'real world' confirmation whether they work reliably or not. What is available appears to be for car diesel engines only, which have much more robust fuel injectors, and older German diesel engines will even run on straight vegetable oil (SVO) without any apparent problems!

It looks like I'm a reluctant 'pioneer' with 'vegefuel' blends and small diesel engines, actually "Prepared to put my money where my mouth is", when experimenting with a new diesel engine, just after it has been 'run in' on diesel. There's a lot of people out there who like to put forward theories without any actual real experiences of running engines according to their theories!

From what I've seen inside my engine, based on the Yanmar L100, it will not run reliably on SVO! The vegetable oil is too viscous compared to diesel at normal temperatures, and doesn't burn fast enough when compressed, due to the cylinder head/ piston crown design. It may run on a vegetable oil blend mixed with diesel, with a 50% mix - my white spirit blend was the most successful, but you would have to carefully monitor engine performance and compression all the time. See my post about repairing a "Yanclone" engine, to give you an idea of what's going on inside one of these small diesel engines.

The final blend that might be worth while experimenting with, would be a kerosene/paraffin vegetable oil blend, with a 25% mix of kerosene with the oil, as a starting point. The first aim would be to get the viscosity the same as diesel, and the kerosene/paraffin would act as a flammable emulsifier. This could be a successful blend, when mixed 50% with diesel.

I've tried my best to share my experiences in a slightly 'scientific' manner, and hope that it encourages people to keep on sensibly experimenting with alternative renewable fuels. Just keep sharing your 'real world' experiences with everyone....

Finally, "Old Clunkie" is back on the road and running very well on diesel for now, after some better parts have been used in the engine rebuild.
My next fuel experiment eventually, will be producing small scale biodiesel.

Good luck with your fuel experiments.

[coachgeo]

your Yanmar is air cooled right? (aka- not available coolant system to borrow heat from to reduce fuel viscosity)

You did not re-tune the IP timing in attempts to match fuel burn/combustion characteristics?


PS- blends.. long ago there was an interesting discussion on another board about potential benefits of using a small amount of petrol like is recommend by some manufactures when weather is very cold. Even though mathematically this reduced the cetane .... the thought that came out of it was the petrol created an additional flame front which helped to more completely combust the atomized oil. Side note... some had problems with alcohol blended petrol's when experimenting with petrol as part of the blend.

[old clunker]

My Yanclone is air cooled, and the expelled cooling air is directed over the high pressure fuel pipe, after being heated up nicely by the cylinder! It's a deliberate design feature to warm up diesel before it gets to the injector in cold conditions.
I didn't adjust the injector timing, as it's done by using copper shims, and set up for that particular injector installation in the engine. Changing the shims would have affected the engine running normally on diesel or diesel mixes, which I used.

My second fuel blend attempt was using petrol/gasolene, to reduce the viscosity of the vegetable oil, plus I used a cetane enhancer as well. The engine didn't like the blend, and it didn't run well. As soon as it was used up, and I ran it on a non petrol/gasolene blend, the engine ran much better.
From my personal experiences, small diesel engines don't like petrol mixed up in them!

Anyway, thanks for the comments Coach, it's all adds to the ideas and opinions expressed.

[alexanderfoti]

I have just read your conclusion.

I have been running mainly WVO in my L100 since day one, see the following for mileage and fuel economy:



2000 Odd miles on basically some form of Veg or another.

I have replaced one fuel pump due to inadequate filtering, and have a water injection system and nichrome heating on the injector line to aid starting.

Apart from that no performance issues or anything like that.

I wonder if your experience was a one off? I run mine as I want to replace it with a Z482 so I dont really care if it blows up as it will give me an excuse to change it.

However, it keeps going and going!

[coachgeo]

I may have asked you before...... and appologize if I have..... did you do a pre WVO compression check? pre later H20 Inject? Comparing before and after(s) at X# miles on WVO would be a way to keep up with how much you are coking (or not) the rings etc.

[gilburton]

"I must admit, you have me confused, good sir. It's the new engines that have the direct injection. The old engines have prechambers, one of the reasons they are so loud and run at lower compression (also largely why glowplugs are required at lower temps)."
Rhynri you are correct. I used to run a peugeot 106 on veg oil.
The small Yanmar clones are direct injection and as such are not suitable for straight veg oil.
The only engines that will run on wvo or straight veg oil are indirect engines.
A swirl chamber on the piston is not indirect injection!!This is the reason why people go for the older merc,vw engines etc. as they are of the indirect type.
All newer engines are direct injection.
Lucas pumps will take wvo BUT you have to preheat the veg oil and after starting on diesel switch over once up to temp.
Before arriving at your destination you have to clean out the pump by switching back to diesel about 10 mins before stopping.
This ensures the pump is fully cleaned out and can start on clean diesel when cold.
With a bosch pump it will take veg oil from cold.
The lucas pump uses vanes to pressurise the fuel whereas the bosch uses a standard piston to pressurise. The lucas vanes break because of the viscosity of cold oil Once hot they are no problem.
The peugeot/citroen could come with either lucas or Bosch pumps. The rover metro was only fitted with lucas.
All this is from actual experience and I have the scars on my knuckles from changing pumps over
The kubota Z482 is direct injection so will either need additives and/or a preheater using the water cooling and a dual switched system.
The only microcar engine that was perfect for wvo was the Lombardini FOCS diesel type engines as fitted to the Ligier Ambra as they are INDIRECT but these engines were soon dropped as they proved unreliable and expensive to repair when used in vehicles.Apart from Aixam diesel(Kubota) they all switched to petrol Lombardini engines and even Aixam offers the Lomberdini petrol version option.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/63-gm- ... erent.html

[alexanderfoti]

I may have asked you before...... and appologize if I have..... did you do a pre WVO compression check? pre later H20 Inject? Comparing before and after(s) at X# miles on WVO would be a way to keep up with how much you are coking (or not) the rings etc.

I didnt because I couldnt get concrete info on which compression tester would fit the L100, and all the kits seemed quite expensive (read 1/3 of the purchase price of the engine).

It would be nice to have a number representing the health of the engine but I dont

[alexanderfoti]

"I must admit, you have me confused, good sir. It's the new engines that have the direct injection. The old engines have prechambers, one of the reasons they are so loud and run at lower compression (also largely why glowplugs are required at lower temps)."
Rhynri you are correct. I used to run a peugeot 106 on veg oil.
The small Yanmar clones are direct injection and as such are not suitable for straight veg oil.
The only engines that will run on wvo or straight veg oil are indirect engines.
A swirl chamber on the piston is not indirect injection!!This is the reason why people go for the older merc,vw engines etc. as they are of the indirect type.
All newer engines are direct injection.
Lucas pumps will take wvo BUT you have to preheat the veg oil and after starting on diesel switch over once up to temp.
Before arriving at your destination you have to clean out the pump by switching back to diesel about 10 mins before stopping.
This ensures the pump is fully cleaned out and can start on clean diesel when cold.
With a bosch pump it will take veg oil from cold.
The lucas pump uses vanes to pressurise the fuel whereas the bosch uses a standard piston to pressurise. The lucas vanes break because of the viscosity of cold oil Once hot they are no problem.
The peugeot/citroen could come with either lucas or Bosch pumps. The rover metro was only fitted with lucas.
All this is from actual experience and I have the scars on my knuckles from changing pumps over
The kubota Z482 is direct injection so will either need additives and/or a preheater using the water cooling and a dual switched system.
The only microcar engine that was perfect for wvo was the Lombardini FOCS diesel type engines as fitted to the Ligier Ambra as they are INDIRECT but these engines were soon dropped as they proved unreliable and expensive to repair when used in vehicles.Apart from Aixam diesel(Kubota) they all switched to petrol Lombardini engines and even Aixam offers the Lomberdini petrol version option.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/63-gm- ... erent.html

The Kubota spec page lists IDI as the injection type?

http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/en ... s/z482-e4b

It also has glow plugs, which would normally be omitted on a direct injection engine.

[gilburton]

Fair enough I stand corrected but i would still check out the earlier engines as I was under the impression they were direct??
Did Tim strip his down??

[alexanderfoti]

Fair enough I stand corrected but i would still check out the earlier engines as I was under the impression they were direct??

Thats why the z482 is such a peach! Just got to find one in good condition for little money.

[gilburton]

This is still for sale and I don't think you are going to get one much cheaper.
It doesn't have the complete cvt but I presume you won't be using that??

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aixam-500-Kub ... 4184941f04

[alexanderfoti]

This is still for sale and I don't think you are going to get one much cheaper.
It doesn't have the complete cvt but I presume you won't be using that??

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aixam-500-Kub ... 4184941f04

I actually spoke to the guy about that one, it was originaly on 350, then 300 now 250, I will keep an eye, couldnt remeber if it had the starter and inlet/exhaust manifolds too.