UK registration with frame changes - where are we now?

[mark_in_manchester]

Hi Folks

On another bike forum I look at, discussions are afoot about registering a classic bike which is a collection of what used to be called 'previously un-associated parts'. I went looking at the DVLA site to read up on the 'points' system - this for a frame, that for an engine, etc - which one might apply to a modified vehicle, when working out whether it might retain its existing reg, or be issued a Q plate. Looked like the latter, automatically, for anything with a modified frame. The stuff on inspection / type approval etc confused me greatly - somehow I avoided all this with my bike, a stretched Ural-Daihatsu. What's the current state of play - anyone like to summarise it gently for me?

cheers
Mark

[Eddy Wane]

Mark.
It would appear from the points system that most builds will score 10/11 points as most of the bike will be original with either an engine or gearbox and engine change. There does not appear to be a definition of "modified" frame on the DVLA web site. It cannot be assumed that tweaking the frame dimensions to make the engine fit is not a modification. Repositioning engine mounts may also be a no no but using the existing location and adding spacers/plates should be fine.
Sourcing a suitable bike for a diesel conversion is always a compromise but it may be very difficult to build without any frame mods that breach the DVLA rules.

[mark_in_manchester]

Yes, I see. And what's the nature of the inspection when one modifies a frame these days?

[Tamber]

I could be wrong on this, but you'd either have to go through IVA, or Motorcycle SVA (I was fairly sure SVA had been phased out, but it's still listed on the fees poster. Who knows! ). I'd recommend checking the IVA manual to figure out what you'd have to comply with, if you have to go that route.

Though, to get a better idea of what you'd actually need to do, it might be an idea to check with someone who actually knows what they're doing when it comes to the DVLA's particular madness. (Making a post in the licensing/legal section on Rods N' Sods might be a good idea, since Kapri there knows enough about the process and pitfalls to drive lesser men mad. Consistency is not Doovla's strong point.)

[Stuart]

Do check your DVLA office is still there! They are closing many down

[gilburton]

I think the key here is to get a bike/frame with a v5 or a number plate so that you can check if it is still on the database.
The problem seems to start when you have no reg number/v5 as you then have to get it inspected or at least dated if a classic bike.
If you have a v5 there doesn't seem to be such a problem as all you have to do is get someone in the motor trade to verify the engine/frame numbers and the change to diesel(heavy oil)
It's not a mechanical check.
No mechanical inspection was necessary on mine and I expect it helps if you can get it MOT'd.
You will probably have more problems trying to get an insurance company to cover it and of course you would then declare the frame mods.
After all haven't chop builders been doing just that??

[mark_in_manchester]

Ah, that would explain my relatively easy ride - I had a log book. The web site now looks so forbidding that it rather freaked me out - it does suggest that to 'register' almost anything is now quite a rigmarole. I guess one way forward with no logbook would be to build a standard vehicle, get that registered, and then start one's modifications at that point. What a hassle.

[gilburton]

I was also a bit dubious about the MOT test if I had modified the frame but as I had used an MZ I just had to construct an engine sling or cradle and hang it from the unmodified frame.
I think in the UK as long as the MOT tester is satisfied that it is safe we are good to go unlike a lot of other countries.
I can see it getting more difficult as the EU tightens the screw
There was a post a couple of weeks ago about a suitable frame and I had come to the same conclusion if I was going to build another.
Get yourself a more modern "delta box" type frame. With most of these the main top rails are usually very wide so most engines will slot up between the rails without modification.
Another bonus is that the original engine usually sit in a cradle which just hangs down and is removable so this is what gets modified not the frame.
They also come in shaft or chain drive depending on which way you want your engine.
Personally I would use the original tank as a dummy to cover the top of the engine/air filter and house the electrics.
A custom fuel tank could then be made to fit under the seat area.
Also lets face it car/industrial engines are not the best lookers, although they have a vintage charm, so if your donor came with a fairing this can cover all this up
Strayed off topic a bit apologies

[mark_in_manchester]

[quote="gilburton"] I was also a bit dubious about the MOT test if I had modified the frame but as I had used an MZ I just had to construct an engine sling or cradle and hang it from the unmodified frame....
Another bonus is that the original engine usually sit in a cradle which just hangs down and is removable so this is what gets modified not the frame.
They also come in shaft or chain drive depending on which way you want your engine.... [/quote]

Are there pictures? I have an MZ, and have been into them for a long time. Box frame idea is a good one...but your point about the 'cradle' highlights the funny position dvla have put themselves in. When is a frame not a frame!

[gilburton]

I no longer have it but here are some pics
https://www.dieselbikeforum.com/view ... =31&t=2184

https://plus.google.com/photos/10610732 ... banner=pwa

[gilburton]

Some frames have the engine as a stressed member but you could argue that putting a much lower powered engine in is no stress especially if it weighs the same or less than the original

[coachgeo]

Some frames have the engine as a stressed member but you could argue that putting a much lower powered engine in is no stress especially if it weighs the same or less than the original

If you won that argument the inspector knows nothing about engineering AT ALL. Which is a bad thing.

[gilburton]

Although there is no doubt that the UK is getting stricter with regulations most inspectors are just ordinary garage people who have been around for years.
The inspectors are not some super trained government inspectors looking for the slightest deviation from standard.
There are minimum specifications/checks laid down mainly safety related eg brakes,lights, tyres,rust,steering etc. Bikes have similar checks but obviously less of them compared to a car.
In the UK bikes don't have emission checks even new ones but they come with cats etc anyway so providing newer bikes have an approved British Standards stamp on the exhaust after 2001 we can do virtually what we like with aftermarket types as it's mainly a noise thing.
Older than 2001 and it's down to the inspectors ears.
We don't have any regs which says the bike frame/wheelbase must be kept standard.
We don't have strict type approval laws which make any DIY modification to a standard bike virtually impossible.
As I said the purpose of our MOT test is mainly a safety check so if the MOT tester is satisfied that after the statutory checks the bike is generally safe it will get a ticket.
Obviously if replacing a stressed member frame(not all are) to retain the triangularisation some tubing would have to be fabricated to replace it but you would be doing this anyway to enable you to mount your engine..
Some of the modern types just have an engine support as the main frame tubes are strong enough. It all depends how the engine is mounted to figure out if it's stressed or if it just uses a subframe.
Our main danger is insurance companies as they don't understand

[tappy]

Some frames have the engine as a stressed member but you could argue that putting a much lower powered engine in is no stress especially if it weighs the same or less than the original

No. The majority of the stresses on a motorcycle frame are due to braking and steering. The mass of the engine only forms a small part of these loads. Even with a low powered engine you will still need to be able to steer and brake hard when someone else on the road does something stupid. These forces are concentrated at the head-stock as very large bending moments. If the frame is designed with the engine as a stressed member then removing the engine will massively reduce the frame's structural integrity and stiffness.

[tappy]

We don't have any regs which says the bike frame/wheelbase must be kept standard.
We don't have strict type approval laws which make any DIY modification to a standard bike virtually impossible.

Yes we do. The comments you make are relevant to the MOT test. The MOT test is just there to make sure that the vehicle meets a set of safety requirements, but the nature of these requirements generally assume that the vehicle is "of a type" -i.e. it has been type tested or type approved.
If you make significant changes to the vehicle then it no longer conforms to the "type" originally declared by the manufacturer, and must be subject to a Single Vehicle Approval - SVA test.
Consider a silly example. For cars, one of the MOT checks is for corrosion to the prescribed suspension mounting points on the chassis. If the chassis is unmodified, this makes sense. Suppose some-one has replaced those parts of the chassis with composite. The check for corrosion can still be made, but it's totally irrelevant - the vehicle is no longer as designed and can fail in all manner of other ways.

The MOT tester has little time or obligation to decide whether or not a bike being inspected needs an SVA test. If they spot something obvious then they may refuse a test, but the onus to decide whether or not a bike needs an SVA test is down to the owner, no-one else.

The definition of "significant" in this case is well laid out in the DVLA documentation. You get a points score for the following:
Unmodified, original frame as per new from the manufacturer - 5
Engine - 2
Transmission -1
Front and rear axles - 2
Front and rear suspension - 2.

You need a total of 8 points to retain the original registration.
You don't get 1 point for front suspension and 1 for rear - both have to be the same as original or it's no points at all. Likewise for the axles.

The majority of the bikes built here replace the engine, many replace the transmission. If you don't change the frame, suspension or axles then you keep the registration.
If you change any of the suspension or axles then you lose another 2 points and must submit the bike for an MSVA test.
If you change the frame then you lose 5 points and must submit the bike for an MSVA test.

If you modify the frame by adding a couple of small brackets etc then in theory you've modified the frame. In practice I doubt anyone will ever notice and it'll never be a problem. If you've chopped out or modified the down-tubes to stick in a different engine and transmission, then you should really have an MSVA test.

The MSVA test itself is very straight forward and the various rules and regulations you must comply with are well explained.
The only difficulty is of course then insurance.

[tappy]

Do check your DVLA office is still there! They are closing many down

Yep - all the local offices have now gone, BUT the phone system has been replaced. Sometimes it's too busy and you can't get through, but generally 2 menu options gets you through to a human that can answer your questions. Few of them are likely to be experts in this area though so you really do need to have a very thorough read of the stuff on the DVLA website. This way you can ask the right questions. In any event it's generally better to write by snail mail - you REALLY want a signed paper copy of anything the DVLA has agreed to..

[gilburton]

Well there you go it's down to the owners/testers opinion.
Take it for a test and see what happens.
All I can say is I didn't have any problem at the MOT and in fact most testers have seen it all so they can usually tell if something is safe /unsafe and I found they were more interested in the fact it was a diesel
Is there any age cut offs with these regs as type approval is a relatively modern thing??
As far as I can see it's only if you want to register a bike or is radically altered. Still seems a lot of leeway in the regs??
It would be interesting to do a straw poll and find out how many people (in the UK) have just gone for an MOT test or an MSVA??
Does this mean anyone putting a hardtail or forks on a chop would have to go for MSVA??
Does Henry Price go through MSVA??
I can understand it if a scratch built frame is used but most people just fabricate new mountings on the original frame.
All the DVLA wanted was a confirmation on headed paper that the frame/engine number was as declared and it was a diesel and was all done within 3 weeks.

[tappy]

I've found a copy of the full points list:

Chassis or monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) (original or new, direct from manufacturers) - 5 points
Suspension (front and back) - 2 points
Axles (both) - 2 points
Transmission - 2 points
Steering assembly - 2 points
Engine - 1 points

SOO, if you keep everything but the frame then you can keep the registration.
If you hard-tail a frame (so lose the suspension points) then you only have 7 points so need an MSVA. I'd be surprised if many of the chops in the country have an an MSVA test!

Henry Price's bikes don't need an MSVA - they keep original transmission, the suspension, axles and steering assembly.

There's no age restriction - if you have an old bike then it may not be subject to certain requirements (such as proper lights, silencing etc), but if you modify the bike away from its original type then it'd need an MSVA and get a new registration, at which point I think all the new regulations would apply!

If you build a bike from lots of old parts from other bikes then if either the manufacturer or owners club can confirm that it's "of the type" then you'll get an age related number.

[gilburton]

"MSVA applies to the following types of vehicles that are unregistered, under 10 years old and don’t have ECWVTA"
taken from the regs??
Note the UNREGISTERED bit. This would cover scratch built frames of any age so you would indeed need an MSVA.
This is where the points system comes in if you want to retain an original reg or something similar otherwise you will get a "Q" registration like a lot of kit cars.
This is at the top of the regs so it doesn't apply to pre 2003 bikes unless you have an unregistered,pre 2003 bike as the type approval is not retrospective.
If you have a vintage frame and get a date certificate from an approved club etc. you will get a reg. doc through the post.
Type approval came in in 2003 so as this was written in 2013 it would be 10 yrs so presumably that would be 11 yrs in 2014??
So basically, as I said, if you have a v5 an MOT is enough. It does say you can voluntarily go for a test but as the test centres are few and far between I can't see many people doing that??
I live in Northants and would have to go to Birmingham and if it failed trailer it back and forth until it passed.

[tappy]

Interesting, I'd never interpretted that bit like that..

The MSVA scheme guide says:
MSVA will be applied to the following :
an amateur built vehicle
a vehicle manufactured in very low volume
a vehicle manufactured using parts of a registered vehicle
a rebuilt vehicle (mandatory if first licensing and registration required)
an imported vehicle without type approval.
DVLA may also require radically altered vehicles and rebuilt vehicles to be examined.

It's that last bit that's drawn my eye in the past, but yeah, I'd never twigged on the "previously unregistered" bit.
Now that they've got a lovely new phone system with people on the end, perhaps I'll give them a yell...

[gilburton]

I presume the last bit"the dvla might require etc" may arise if the MOT tester is not sure or your documents aren't in order??
When I tried to alter my details on the V5 all they asked for was the headed notification as I said earlier so presumably if that is ok and it passes the MOT test they are happy to let the MOT verify it.
I think the "radical altered" bit leaves a lot to interpretation??
If you look at the first 3 on your list they are more in line if you are intending to build something using a frame of your own design or just a headstock for instance.
These wouldn't have been registered or just using a headstock would be more in line of radically altered.
The last 2 on the list are obvious and don't really count.
So the moral is don't look to deeply in to the regs. and start with a registered bike/ frame as it will save you a lot of trouble.

[Redkite]

Hopefully its still relevant, but here's the DVLA leaflet Inf26 PDF for modified vehicles which explains the points system.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg ... 180218.pdf

Tappy, How many points do you reckon I get?
Frame unmodified, Steering untouched, new engine, gearbox, new swing arm, original rear wheel and spindle, original shocks?

This week I've received my logbook back from DVLA, now officially powered by HEAVY OIL, after they rejected my application last year, and it took them 8 weeks to reply, as I didn't comply with one/any of the following;-
"A receipt of purchase on headed paper, from a garage, with engine No. and fuel type".( i bought it off of Ebay)
"An AA or RAC inspection report" ( they wont inspect motorcycles)

I rang DVLA and said I couldn't comply, they said that a letter from my local garage would suffice, so it was down to my local bike shop with bike in van. He didn't have his own letterheaded paper, so I designed one for him with MS Publisher. Sent the letter Stating VIN, Reg, new engine number etc, with a receipt of purchase, engine manufacturers leaflet showing the spec, and covering letter, 4 weeks later, Eureka! We have a V5C. Next challenge, the MOT.

[gilburton]

That's all you need if you have a V5. A receipt or headed paper with the change of details.
It used to be you could just fill in the changes but they now want proof from someone in the trade just to verify the changes.
It's now down to the MOT test to verify it's roadworthy in the normal way.

[tappy]

Hopefully its still relevant, but here's the DVLA leaflet Inf26 PDF for modified vehicles which explains the points system.
Tappy, How many points do you reckon I get?
Frame unmodified, Steering untouched, new engine, gearbox, new swing arm, original rear wheel and spindle, original shocks?

Frame = 5 points. Head-stock assy = 2 points. It's hard to know what "axles" mean for a motorbike but if you've got the original wheel spindles and wheel hubs and both ends then I'd say that's another 2 points. If the swing arm isn't the same as the original then sadly you lose the "suspension" 2 points. To be honest tho' - if the frame's un-modified then I'd just MOT it.