Yanmar Guzzi

Post by **Stuart** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:16 pm

Thanks to Mitchell for sending me details of his superb Yanmar Moto Guzzi.
Details are as follows: 1971 Moto Guzzi powder with a Yanmar 3GM30 diesel. 65 mpg and has a top speed of 74 mph.
will be adding a gun mount and improving the top speed.
Built by Mitchell green of Tampa, Florida.

Post by **Byrdman** » Tue May 01, 2007 3:32 am

Absolutely awesome...............

You can barely tell there's a diesel hiding in there.

What tranny was used, Guzzi?

andrewaust · Post by **andrewaust** » Tue May 01, 2007 7:09 am

Yeah I thought the same Brydman, just goes to show how neat the job can be done.

Top speed is looking good too! Boy, my old one lunger will only hit 60 on a good day

Good post Stuart, will be interesting to see it with the gun mount, good job all the same

Cheers

Andrew

Rick-II · Post by **Rick-II** » Wed May 02, 2007 2:58 am

Sure looks like a Guzzi trans (I've had a bunch of em)
Sure would like to see exactly how he rigged up a clutch for it, though!

balboa_71 · Post by **balboa_71** » Wed May 02, 2007 6:24 pm

I used to own a T3 Guzzi. Good bike for a diesel swap, rock solid, but tranny had a broken return spring. You know, Guzzi's and Bmw seem to go through "u" joints more often than Jap bikes (or so it seems)

Anyways, I think the Guzzi flywheel has some sort of machined feature about it that makes engine swaps a PITA, but I don't remember the details. What happened to the good 'ol days when flywheels were simple and clutch components were "a dime a dozen"

Cris

zarquon · Post by **zarquon** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:06 am

Check this link:

http://home.earthlink.net/~kkologiski/Guzzi.html

some more pics and info about the bike.

Good stuff!

Rafael

oldbmw · Post by **oldbmw** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:10 pm

What bothers me about this bike is, a new enfield electra probably costs less, and outperforms it, and is probably nicer to ride. In other words, I can't see the why?

Rick · Post by **Rick** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:46 pm

Why bother?

Because we CAN! Simple as that. I mean lets face it, we ain't exactly the most logical group around. Why the Goose? Long wheelbase. Bulletproof drivetrain, and oh so comfortable. (I've had 3)

And of course, it'll be the ONLY one on planet Earth... (What other reason does one need?) lol

sbrumby · Post by **sbrumby** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:01 pm

Oldbmw, I lov the smell of diesel, that is all you seem to like. You ride a petrol my advise is stick to it.

oldbmw · Post by **oldbmw** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:44 pm

sbrumby wrote:Oldbmw, I lov the smell of diesel, that is all you seem to like. You ride a petrol my advise is stick to it.

Currently i do ride a petrol bike, seemed a good idea at the time

I prefer diesel engines ( especially with mechanical pumps) to petrol engines. I installed them in both boats I built. Prefer driving a diesel car to petrol, and wouldn't want a petrol engined tractor to replace my 1978 Massy ferguson. Truth is a lean burn Enfield does more mpg, is lighter smoother and quicker. So why would I install a heavier engine that was slower, noisier and did lesss mpg? where is the gain ?

Stuarts bike does 150mpg with 60-65 as a top speed, I can see the point of that.

Also If I had the money I would seriously consider Traks offering as that bike seems both civilised and has an impressive performance.

My long term plan is to probably buy a lean burn Enfield, hoping that some day a diesel engine will appear that offers significant advantages over the original.

sbrumby · Post by **sbrumby** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:00 am

Just a couple of points to add, why are you compareing the Guzzi to the Enfield, two completly different bikes. 60-65mph - 74mph, big difference in my book. Also the mpg stated is probably us gallons. But if you are thinking of buying the petrol Enfield buy a chinese bike instead for about half the money.

oldbmw · Post by **oldbmw** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:34 pm

If you can find me a chinese bike witha RH gearchange I will consider it

My BMW is nearer to the Guzzi, and the guzzi does not have a significant advantage over it mpg wise. cruising at those kind of speeds it turns in nearly 60mpg.

I have lived with it long enough now to know I will never fully adjust to a bike with a LH gearchange. This severely limits my choices. I have also leaned to dislike hiseated heavy bikes. Were that not so the Kawasaki ER500 would have been a good low cost choice or for nostalgia, a new Triumph twin,, or better in my book a Kawasaki w650. But I resent paying big bucks for a bike I can't enjoy riding. I have to say, of all the diesel bike variations that exist now in my view an enfield with 5 speed RH gearchange and Hatz IB30 engine makes the most sense for me, personally. I also feel bikes are a more personal thing than a car.
Buying a lean burn Enfield ( electra) isa step towards a diesel bike. As is it gives about 85mph top speed with 80+mpg and 160kg weight. When I locate a diesel engine that will be an improvement over those numbers I will dieselfy it. But I wont be fitting a 1 1/2 hp cement mixer engine, nor will I canibalise my Massey ferguson tractor. Because I think the existing engine would make a better ride.

sbrumby · Post by **sbrumby** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:39 am

aint the electra a Lh gearchange?

Ih8Suvs · Post by **Ih8Suvs** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:00 am

Just curious, since you want more performance than a "cement mixer" engine gives, why the 1B30 Hatz instead of the 1B40? 3 more horsepower is huge at this level.

oldbmw · Post by **oldbmw** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:06 pm

Sbrumby
The 5 speed box was designed to be ambidextrous. the frames are built ambidextrous as in India they deliver them RH gearchange. In europe and usa they are delivered LH gearchange. Many people ( including Hitchcocks ) sell a conversion kit ( usingthe india production gearbox cover and brake lever) to change them around for about £100. They actualy work better as RH as the linkages are all shorter with less bearing points to run through.
copied from hitcocks site

5 SPEED RIGHT SHIFT CONVERSION
This kit converts the standard 5 speed left foot gear change to the traditional Bullet right foot change and at the same time giving the 1 up 4 down pattern (we can also suppy 1 down 4 up which does not require the cam plate). It includes all the necessary parts including a new machined outer cover, cam plate, gear change shaft, brake pedal, bungs etc.

Note: The neutral warning light will be lost in this conversion.

PART No. DESCRIPTION PRICE
90140 5 SPEED CONVERSION, LEFT TO RIGHT CHANGE WITH BRAKE1UP4DOWN - TEMPORARILY
UNAVAILABLE
90142 5 SPEED CONVERSION, LEFT TO RIGHT CHANGE WITH BRAKE 1DOWN4PU £ 100.00

I8Suvs
By using an IB30 engine I can use the 5 speed gearbox. It so happens that the power band is very limited on the hatz diesels ( in part due to static timing) So the change from 4th to 5th will keep you well in the power band. Unfortunately there is a big jump between 3rd and 4th with the four speed boxes, which means you have to get to top revs in third and then make the jump and hope the engine doesen't die. ( I have somewhat exaggerated this, but the 5 speed box does work much better) and it loses less power.

4 Speed ratios: 1st = 2.78:1, 2nd = 1.84:1, 3rd = 1.36:1, 4th = 1:1.

5 Speed ratios: 1st = 3.06:1, 2nd = 2.01:1, 3rd = 1.52:1, 4th = 1.21:1, 5th = 1:1 .

AS with all things there is a trade off. Right gearbox or right engine?

Ih8Suvs · Post by **Ih8Suvs** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:14 am

Ok, gotcha and the 1B40 is too large to fit with the 5 spd.
I guess for me the 40 ish percent greater horsepower would be worth more than the extra gear. I have a 4 spd in my Yanclone powered RE and I really don't think the jump between third and fourth is all that bad. At least its not bad enough I would give up any horsepower to get another ratio in between. The extra gear might be enough to warrant figuring out how to make the 5 speed work with the 1b40. What would you need, a different primary drive? I suppose though if one is to go to all that work it might make more sense to wrangle more horsepower out of a 1B30 instead.

oldbmw · Post by **oldbmw** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:05 pm

Ih8Suvs wrote:Ok, gotcha and the 1B40 is too large to fit with the 5 spd.
I guess for me the 40 ish percent greater horsepower would be worth more than the extra gear. I have a 4 spd in my Yanclone powered RE and I really don't think the jump between third and fourth is all that bad. At least its not bad enough I would give up any horsepower to get another ratio in between. The extra gear might be enough to warrant figuring out how to make the 5 speed work with the 1b40. What would you need, a different primary drive? I suppose though if one is to go to all that work it might make more sense to wrangle more horsepower out of a 1B30 instead.

Yes, there is room (just) to fit the ib30 and 5 speed box. The 4 speed box is used because it comes with the enfields and is separate. Sadly although robust it has some snags. mainly it steals power, and being designed for very torquey petrol engines that big jump from 3rd to 4th wasn't a problem. but is there alreday fitted and free. The diesels with their fixed timing have quite a narrow power band. The switch to a 5 speed box will win back a hp or two. The 5 speed boxes are expensive £500+ to buy, so it makes sense for me to buy a bike with one as standard. I note that the punsen bike used a 5 speed box. It is all down to crankcase size and shape. I would want about 15hp and variable timing. Maybe somebody will build a batch of twins based on the greaves 325cc diesel. if a variable timing pump could be found you would have a civillised bike. Although I am happy to potter bout off the motorways, sometimes it is near impossible to avoid them. An enfield electra although not a motorway cruiser like a BMW will cope until you can get onto roads at a slower pace. A better four speed box would be a pre unit Triumph box, because the gap between 3rd and top is much less.
In other words an enfield electra is an ideal donor bike for a diesel conversion. The conversion though has to perform better than the petrol original. at least in one respect. The numbers to beat are 80+mpg and 85mph. I would want for the bike to be motorway capable even if not enjoyable.

to answer your original question, to install an IB40 witha 5 speed box, you would have to stretch the frame (about 40mm) and teh primary chaincase to fit that combination. Sommer decided it wasn't worthwhile.

Ih8Suvs · Post by **Ih8Suvs** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:19 am

Judging from the pictures I have seen, the punsen wont fit either without changing the primary drive. I might be wrong though, I have only seen pictures of this set up.
As for the 4 speed stealing power, if it is properly set up and with oil instead of grease there is no reason it will be less efficient than any other geared transmission. They are both direct drive in high gear. A crude shifting piece of s***...well yeah that it is. I am sure the 5 speed is much more refined.
I disagree that the fixed timing diesels have "quite a narrow power band" My third world copy of a Yanmar seems to pull strong from idle up to well past its rated 3600 RPM spec. The biggest drawback is the amount of knock and harshness at low RPM's.Me thinks yah aint gonna get 2 hp back with another gear. On the other hand, any Hatz built engine is a nice piece of kit, so even the 1B30 might perform better than my Yanclone.
As far as the four speeds coming with the bike and being free so to speak, that only applies to the older ones. The five speed has been standard equipment on most new models for the last few years.
It just seems, OLDBMW that you are always complaining about the lack of performance, which I agree is a valid complaint. I believe you would be sadly disappointed with the 6.9 hp of the 1B30 and would be better served figuring out how to fit the the 1b40 with the coveted 5 speed box.
You might also consider the MD Ruggerini/25LD Lombardini series engines. Even the baby, the MD151/25LD325-2 has 16.3 horsepower and rack position variable timing as an option. My MD151 has this option and it idles and runs at all RPM's quite nicely, smooth, relatively quiet, and much more refined than the single cylinder Yanclone. I don't have it installed in a bike yet so I don't know how it will work under driving conditions, but I will let you know once I do. I also don't know if these engines will fit with the stock primary and a 5 speed but they will certainly fit with the old clunky four speed. I really don't think it would be that hard to fabricate a different primary to fit the 5 speed if that was necessary.

But better yet, do a build based on a Smart diesel engine. If I remember right you are in France and should have access to these engines. I, thanks to my grandparents, live in the SUV infested US, and can't get a Smart let alone a Smart diesel. I would love to get my hands on one of these engines. On the other hand, I am not sure I really need more horsepower. There is something quite satisfying planting myself in front of some moron in one of these ridiculous clumsy fuel guzzling crap heap stationwagons the ignorant masses drive here and poking along at a relaxed pace.

sbrumby · Post by **sbrumby** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:21 pm

Just to clarify on gearboxes, any gearbox that has the input(clutch) on the same shaft as the output(drivecog) and the final ratio is 1-1 is not a gear at all just a straight drive, as in the Albion 3 speed on my first bike only 2 speed + direct, same as second bike BSA goldstar 3speed + direct. This in theory should be as efficient as possible. Now the last conversion I did has 6 gears & is a true 6 speeds as the input & output shafts are different.

oldbmw · Post by **oldbmw** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:51 pm

you are both correct... If it seems I am complaining it is not meant to be that way. just I have my criteria and current build bikes do not meet my needs.
Locally I like to bumble along, so the IB30 would be fine.. Sadly from time to time I have to use high speed routes when negotiating towns for instance. It is then i would like to have more power. The ruggerini engine sounds ideal. I did see a bike at Hamm with a smaller (smaller than the centaurus 850) twin fitted, but never got to hear it or ride it.
I am well aware of the old design gearboxes... being direct drive in top gear..

see here http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/w ... ve-32357-3

sometimes i am not too sure where I posted what

The punsen I saw had a different primary drive, but did use the 5 speed box.

Any way. my plan is to first get a bike with a RH gearbox and 'improve' it to meet my own needs as soon as I have bought one of these http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tork-grip.html