Flathead Harley conversion to Diesel

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taildraggin
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Flathead Harley conversion to Diesel

Post by taildraggin »

Greetings:

I’ve been researching the progress that’s been made to create diesel bikes, primarily on this site and dieselkrad. It’s all quite interesting.

It seems for fabricating mortals, the path is split between 10hp ‘Enfield-type’ singles (Hatz/Yanmar L100 clones) and vtwin 20hp units (Yanmar 2V750 clones) as the simplest to construct. (Heiko Kleck must be given kudos for having put together some terrific machines. He appears to have mastered construction of both these types.)

One of the appealing things of the Enfield conversions is that they can be good looking. But, I don’t have one and I’m too poor to hack up a new one.

Barring any trips to the Punjab in search of a Taurus, I do have an old Harley flathead ULH/FLH “parts blanket bike” (’36-present) that I built many years ago. If you’ve heard Johnny Cash’s “one part at a time”, you know what it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=403f0tNy ... re=related.

It appears that there are several advantages for me to use the Harley.

1.) Already have the finished rolling stock
2.) It’s titled and registered as a 1940. If it becomes diesel motivated, the DMV, TUV, MOT, FBI, MI5, EPA, MI6, or CIA cannot challenge the registration.
3.) Roomy frame. Looks like the V2s can fit w/o cutting.
4.) Dual tanks allow split of biofuel and straight diesel tankage.
5.) “Never-unit” gearbox and lot’s of OEM and aftermarket primary belt/chain options. 4-speed w/clutch and electric starter already in place.
6.) An industrial engine doesn’t really change the character of the Harley ;)
7.) A yanmar V2 clone will probably be faster than the 80 inch flathead.

Looking over Herr Kleck’s “Diesel Glide” construction photos http://www.dieselkrad.info/dieselmotorr ... glide.html, it looks fairly easy to convert the “Flat Glide” and be quickly dieselkradding. (Noted the advantages of the later rubber glide Harley frames in his photos; simple forward and aft brackets, the fore simply resting on the dynafocal donut. Nice.

The FL frame is ‘solid’ and a diesel may rock it to death. (What vibrates harder: a yanmar diesel or a panhead?) Might be able to find some rubber mounts that can be adapted from aircraft part supply catalogs.

Regarding specific engines, it looks like the Punsun v2 is most attractive, primarily since it is aircooled, lighter and already set up for use with a horizontal crankshaft.

Questions that I have regard the 4 speed trans alignment, gearing and final drive ratio. Obviously, I’m hoping that it will be reasonably close and something that can be bolted up. I can’t believe that peak torque will be too far different from the flattie, however the band is likely narrower.

Feel free to make any comments or suggestions?

Happy New Year,

- Charlie
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Post by Sphere »

For one, the V2 engine by Punsun, is now marketed as Winsun due to business dispute and a new 24hp version has been anounced for this spring.
'92 Enfield + Hatz 1B40: street legal, weld up stainless exhaust, check engine rpm and change final drive sprocket.
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Post by taildraggin »

Exchanged some messages with Heiko. He says the kipor and the punsun have similar power, but the punsun is less responsive and smokier due to its continuous-speed genset application. The kipor (yanmar 2v750 clone) is a turf tractor engine, so it may be better in this regard.

Has anyone done any worked over the punsun to provide better control?
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Post by Sphere »

It would be useful to add the engine type, since Kipor makes a lot of different things. And while I typed make, I can't help thinking "rebadge."
'92 Enfield + Hatz 1B40: street legal, weld up stainless exhaust, check engine rpm and change final drive sprocket.
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Post by taildraggin »

Nee-hao ma:

Of the V2 diesel bikes on this site and dieselkrad site, I've only seen air-cooled Punsun HT812D and water-cooled Kipor KM2V80M.

The air-cooled Punsun HT812D looks like this: http://www.tradeprince.com/catalogs/361 ... 99011.html

The water-cooled Kipor KM2V80M is here: http://www.kipor.com/prouducts_detail3.asp?info_id=762

The corresponding Yanmar to the Kipor would be the 2V750H, but I haven't seen any "H" models, only the vertical crankshaft 2V750V models. This is a plus for the Kipor. Like the Yanmar, it seems to be designed for turf tractor type vehicles, also a good thing.

There was also a Yanmar predecessor to the 2V750, the 2V78 which was all aluminum. The more recent 2V750 seems to have iron cylinders. I do not know which of the 2 Yanmar models the Kipor V2 copies.

Regarding nomenclature, I may be wrong, but I believe that ‘vertical’ and ‘horizontal’ got switched in translation on the Kipor site regarding crankshaft orientation. It has a horizontal crank.

Something that may also confuse things is that Kipor makes air-cooled models that look very similar to the Punsun HT812D. From the Kipor site, see the KD2V78F and KD2V86F. They are genset engines, like the Pusun. (So, if Kipor has established your undying brand loyalty and affection through its long history on the market, it can probably meet all your air- and water-cooled diesel purchasing needs.)

If a new ‘Winsun’ is coming out, it will be interesting to see which family of engines it falls into.

Besto,

- Charlie


BTW – Heiko posted on his youtube site that he’s getting 2.7l-2.9l/100km or about 83-86 mpg with the above engines in his HDs.
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Post by Sphere »

In an email by 'Angela' of winsunpower.cn she insisted that they hold a "patent" pertaining the V2 engine, thus claiming some technical know-how, instead of just copying. I wouldn't really mind spending 1700 euro on the kipor engine, if that gave me European warranty, but I can't find any sources on the internet to tell kipor and winsun apart.

I'll let everyone for themselves decide what to believe, but certain issues just strike me as odd. Anyway, the 22HP engine by Kipor that rotek.at webshop lists, looks remarkably similar to the image winsun has on their website:

Kipor:
Image

Winsun:
Image
'92 Enfield + Hatz 1B40: street legal, weld up stainless exhaust, check engine rpm and change final drive sprocket.
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Post by taildraggin »

It was a curiousity that I couldn't find an 'original' to the air-cooled punsun/wunsun, so that might be.

It's easy to find the designs of the other import engines; most copy yanmar.
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Post by Sphere »

The Austrian importer of Kipor engines says he cannot elaborate on the differences between Winsun and Kipor, because he doesn't know the specifics of the Kipor engine he imports.

How cool is that :shock:
'92 Enfield + Hatz 1B40: street legal, weld up stainless exhaust, check engine rpm and change final drive sprocket.
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Post by TimppaX »

Looks like close cousin of Punsun?

Just placed my order of Punsun twin. Costs about 1100€ shipped to me.
It´s imported by finnish-chinese trade house.

They also import ChangJiangs and parts besides toys bamboo etc. They sent photo of one already dieseled Chinese CJ... But car behind looks like european. Maybe shot taken in Germany?

Image
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Post by Sphere »

How many HP is your version? The 22HP version is listed for 1700 euro in Austria, excluding shipping...
'92 Enfield + Hatz 1B40: street legal, weld up stainless exhaust, check engine rpm and change final drive sprocket.
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Post by TimppaX »

22hp

They told me that photo is from 1st prototype of factorymade CJ diesel..

Price is still a little bit under construction, but it shouldn´t change much. It should sink lower if they get their container fully filled.

Contact my seller and ask if they could provide You one? It is maybe the only good thing about being part of the allmighty EU :roll:

NCA´s website: http://www.elisanet.fi/tuomala/sidecars/sidecars.html
Last edited by TimppaX on Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
that should do it
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Post by Sphere »

I guess we can safely ignore the Austrian route then.

edit: I guess the engine is an unlisted item? I don't see it anywhere on their site.
'92 Enfield + Hatz 1B40: street legal, weld up stainless exhaust, check engine rpm and change final drive sprocket.
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like minds

Post by Diecycle »

Sphere I like your tag. I am dreaming of 80mph cruise with a 28hp ruggerini. (which is now only 23hp but I am trying to work out how to turbo it) in a BMW R75 frame
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Post by Sphere »

Lets hope it turns reality. My father used to ride an R80, so I'm looking forward to seeing your project. What is your current comfortable cruising speed?
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Post by TimppaX »

Sphere wrote: I guess the engine is an unlisted item? I don't see it anywhere on their site.
Yes.

I asked if they could provide me one and soon email confirmed that it´s possible.
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Post by huub »

They also import ChangJiangs and parts besides toys bamboo etc. They sent photo of one already dieseled Chinese CJ... But car behind looks like european. Maybe shot taken in Germany?
eh?
the bike on the picture is a enfield bullet,
the picture is probably taken in germany , nobody else fits bar end indicators nowadays.
The German Tuv insists on indicators, so german enfield often have these bar end things.

huub
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Post by TimppaX »

Enfield? Never looked at it that close. Maybe mistaken since I haven´t seen either Enfield nor CJ at close range. Dang!

I already suspected that shot was taken somewhere else than China...

Checked and original name for photo was: "gespann 003.jpg motobike 5.jpg"

Who can identify photo and/or bike? German made, or....
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Post by Sphere »

Well, the rims look like plastic Mercedes ones to me, but what do I know 8)
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Post by pietenpol2002 »

At least it looks like our New Zealand and Aussie friends have a reliable source for the Punsun. Of interest is the mention of a 25 HP version being available mid-year and a 30 HP version being available "next year". Given that the page was written in 2007, dare we hope that we'll see a 30 HP V-Twin yet in 2008?

Noteworthy also are the oil lines that supply the oil cooler which is incorporated into the cooling shroud. Those oil supply lines would seem to make it a likely candidate for a turbocharger with oil-cooled bearings. All that empty space in the V just begs to be filled. Why not a turbo?

Be sure to click the Horizontal Specs PDF option on the menu to the left for greater detail.

http://www.hydrapneu.com.au/punsun_engines/

Ron
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Post by Sphere »

Well, I doubt it seriously, for various reasons. Punsun no longer exists, and is currently called Winsun (http://www.winsunpower.cn) Moreover, Winsun announces a 24HP for spring 2008, and no 25 HP. Winsun themselves claim that they had to build a new factory in the process.

It might be possible to squeeze the extra 2HP from the existing 22HP model, but a 30HP variant probably requires a bigger block. All in all I think the hydrapneu website is outdated.
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Post by huub »

anybody knows the connection between MGS ( http://www.mgspower.com/elinkus.asp ) and winsun?
they both claim to be building what looks like the same engine...

huub
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Post by TimppaX »

Who copies who??? Products are similar, even photos..

That dieselbike photo above I posted is taken in Germany and I´m told it´s a prototype of maybe forthcoming product but somehow I´ve builded bit of a certain doubts aginst local provider...
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Post by zarquon »

huub wrote:anybody knows the connection between MGS ( http://www.mgspower.com/elinkus.asp ) and winsun?
Don't know anything about the relationships, but the bike that can be found on that pages is the "Punsun-Harley" build by Heiko Fleck in germany.

http://www.dieselkrad.info/dieselmotorr ... arley.html
http://www.mgspower.com/eshowProDetail.asp?ProID=1528

regards

Rafael
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Post by taildraggin »

...and the thread goes full circle...
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