Small volume bio diesel

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:54 pm

Seing as our direct injection diesels do not run on veg oil well, it seems the only option when using veg oil is to convert it to bio diesel.

Most instructions for this online are for large scale production and therefore cost a lot to build the kit to do it .

Does anybody have any ideas for a very small scale processor? I would be happy to make 20-25 liters at a time.

Thoughts?

BertTrack · Post by **BertTrack** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:32 pm

Here's one option but it's expensive. There plenty of biodiesel books and websites online that will give you exact details on how to do i at home in a barrel etc.

http://greenfuels.co.uk/products/fuelpo ... processor/

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:28 pm

BertTrack wrote:Here's one option but it's expensive. There plenty of biodiesel books and websites online that will give you exact details on how to do i at home in a barrel etc.

http://greenfuels.co.uk/products/fuelpo ... processor/

Fair enough, I thought there may be a small applicance that was cheap to buy and cheap to make small amounts. Many thanks

BertTrack · Post by **BertTrack** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:48 pm

Got one of those aswell a tabletop one.

http://inhabitat.com/the-biobot-20-is-a ... oking-oil/

ckhenshaw4 · Post by **ckhenshaw4** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:08 am

I have been making and running biodiesel in all my vehicles for ten years now, and they all love it. I make 40 gallon batches. Look up this web site. svmade.com That is where I purchased my plans from, and it works great. Good luck.

coachgeo · Post by **coachgeo** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:52 pm

Yeah there is small batch processors... mostly home made. Look on net for threads, videos etc. that offer a plan for a biodiesel experiment or trial batch. This essential would be a small processor set up.

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:03 pm

Many thanks. I will have a look around.

coachgeo · Post by **coachgeo** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:28 am

as to Bio-D over Veg oil... here is one way to think about it. With Veg. oil you do, a shiat load of study; make a plan and carry out one complicated conversion of the engine to do it right. Royal PITA but besides testing to verify things.... your done once you finalize it all. Well almost done... you got to filter your oil forever.

With Bio-D you study a shiat load too and then build your processor. Then still you filter oil followed by processing. You do the Filter & Process steps with with EVERY drop of oil you ever get till the end of time. Also Processing is with nasty chemicals till the end of time

So your choice....... Filter forever + convert ONCE..... or Filter and Process with nasty chemicals; both forever.

Either one produces a burnable waste product.

Just my .02cents

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:42 am

I always thougth that converting the engine to burn veg would be the easiest option. I cant find enough information for our engines to allow it to reliably burn them.

It would be idea if I had a z482 as this is indirect injection and likes veg very much.

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:20 pm

I also didnt get much guidance from burn veg, apart from somebody misinterpreting my posts information and accusing me of not knowing anything about engines.

coachgeo · Post by **coachgeo** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:02 pm

alexanderfoti wrote:I always thougth that converting the engine to burn veg would be the easiest option. I cant find enough information for our engines to allow it to reliably burn them.

It would be idea if I had a z482 as this is indirect injection and likes veg very much.

There is little to no data on any SPECIFIC engines on using them to burn anything but diesel besides maybe the MB 617 Turbo. Their is lot of trial and error data on various engines. Over all very very very little on the stationary engines we typically put in diesel bikes. Least very little in English. Some countries where diesel is more prominent for utility/tool applications like German and Italian you might find more.

So even more so for our stationery engines, since so little info is out there; one has to get a good strong conceptual feel/understanding of how a diesel works, What does the change in timing actually do? what is the potential burn/ignition characteristics of the different combustible oil you want to use instead of diesel fuel (does it ignite sooner or later in the path of piston toward top dead center for example) etc etc. So yeah.... Lots of reading has got to be done. It is not a spoon feed quest by any means.

And Yes, IDI like the Z482 is your best bet for WVO or SVO. along with other additions to increase atomization of the fuel oil being used. Heated fuel to lower viscosity, blended fuels, injector changes, Swirl Chamber changes, piston changes (swirl cup in piston maybe?)There is also after glow of glow plugs. Another area that tweaking is done is heated Fuel Injector Lines.

Course any of that is for naught if one has not set up their testing procedures. You go to explore how to evaluate the quality of combustion so changes can be made to timing till it is combusting best. Unfortunately fuel sniffers that measure unburnt fuel is not easily available for diesels. Nor to most folk have access to Dyno testing facilities so you got to read up on how to road test with time trials, Compression gauges, home made load test etc.

In a nut shell.. up front Bio-D is easier. Might be though the quest is less fun?

coachgeo · Post by **coachgeo** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:05 pm

alexanderfoti wrote:I also didnt get much guidance from burn veg, apart from somebody misinterpreting my posts information and accusing me of not knowing anything about engines.

A snarky person on a discussion board..... hmmm... never seen that before.

Have not been to Burnveg in a while. Was a moderator there for some time. In the past it was one of the most helpful; but dynamics may have changed.

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:09 pm

I completely agree, there is always lots of information from both camps to say it works well, vs those who have had issues.

I think one thing that we forget is that these engines are REALLY cheap. I got mine for 350 pounds, add that to the fact that it can be swapped out in 2-3 hours tops means that experiementing, even if it has bad consquences, might not be that bad, and might provide lots of information if the engine is dismanteled if its does fail.

I agree, it is more fun! However, the girlfriend has to see me some time

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:18 pm

coachgeo wrote:
alexanderfoti wrote:I also didnt get much guidance from burn veg, apart from somebody misinterpreting my posts information and accusing me of not knowing anything about engines.
A snarky person on a discussion board..... hmmm... never seen that before.

Hehehe

mark_in_manchester · Post by **mark_in_manchester** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:40 am

Hi Alexander

Bump!

Have you considered seeing what percentage of filtered WVO your engine will run on? My (IDI) Daihatsu refused on straight, filtered WVO - it ran for just long enough to fill the Inj. pump with the stuff, and only took about 200 kicks to purge it

So then I cut back to 50%, and it ran fine. When I can get the oil for close to free, I use it at 50%, and tell myself I'm getting 200 mpg. I filter it through a set of 3 filter bags (and maybe a mesh sieve to get lumps of fish out first) obtained from ebay.

cheers

Mark

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:42 am

Many thanks Mark!

So far I have done about 1000 miles on Filtereted WVO and 10% rug. Along with water injection I have no issues. However its 3 degrees C here today, so we will see how it likes the stuff when its a bit colder outside)

coachgeo · Post by **coachgeo** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:56 am

alexanderfoti wrote:Many thanks Mark!

So far I have done about 1000 miles on Filtereted WVO and 10% rug. Along with water injection I have no issues. However its 3 degrees C here today, so we will see how it likes the stuff when its a bit colder outside)

You got room to add a plug in coolant heater to the bike? Then your always a warm start up. A fellow in canada does real well with that and blends.

Also adding some Isopropyl to your blend may help too (the Peter Schure? blend)

What are you doing to Dewater your WVO? You don't want to pit your cylinder walls or pistons via Cavitation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation )

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:58 pm

coachgeo wrote:
alexanderfoti wrote:Many thanks Mark!

So far I have done about 1000 miles on Filtereted WVO and 10% rug. Along with water injection I have no issues. However its 3 degrees C here today, so we will see how it likes the stuff when its a bit colder outside)
You got room to add a plug in coolant heater to the bike? Then your always a warm start up. A fellow in canada does real well with that and blends.

Also adding some Isopropyl to your blend may help too (the Peter Schure? blend)

What are you doing to Dewater your WVO? You don't want to pit your cylinder walls or pistons via Cavitation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation )

Petrol works well for me to be fair, I may try different variations if mixes if I get a chance.

The supplier filters and dewaters the oil for me. I use the fry pan test with no spatter at all but thanks for the heads up.

I wish I could pre warm but the bike is parked on the street with no access to plugs

coachgeo · Post by **coachgeo** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:14 am

alexanderfoti wrote:Petrol works well for me to be fair, I may try different variations if mixes if I get a chance....

the Isopropyl ( Schur ) blend has petrol in it. Think the iso. portion was somewhere in single digit %

The supplier filters and dewaters the oil for me. I use the fry pan test with no spatter at all but thanks for the heads up.

I wish I could pre warm but the bike is parked on the street with no access to plugs

Very good your dewatered.

I've got a few brain farts stored in my mind about using small camp Propane bottle and a small burner to create a propane burning coolant heater. An alternative is a cart/dolly one that is propane powered. Would be like ones used by small plane pilots. They wheel a dolly out to the plane with an attached bbq propane bottle to fire a coolant heater. At the plane it quick connects into the engine coolant system to prewarm the engine in winter. Once up to temp they disconnect....... rolll it back to the hanger and fire the plane up. Something like that at least. Look into the diesel fired coolant heaters much more prevalent on your side of the pond than here. You might can coble up a miniature version? There like gold here. Might be different there.

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:26 am

That would a good idea. However I'm using an air cooled engine size maybe a small coolant looped with water to oil health exchanger?

coachgeo · Post by **coachgeo** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:27 pm

alexanderfoti wrote:That would a good idea. However I'm using an air cooled engine size maybe a small coolant looped with water to oil health exchanger?

Sounds smart...... if you feel it would help the engine while running; add an oil cooler while your at it. This also gives you option to use oil cooler as a fuel/oil heat exchanger to heat your WVO

gilburton · Post by **gilburton** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:36 pm

Most cars run at around 80 degrees so your only real option with filtered veg oil is to run a twin tank system and heat the oil up to around that temp.
I think running a pipe round the exhaust has been tried but is too hot. I'm sure some sort of tank and heat transfer system could be arranged round and/or behind the cylinder to pick up excess heat and then switch over when up to temp.
I often wondered if the exhaust could be routed "through" a tank but not actually touching it e.g. tube in tube?
The other option and one which I never got round to trying was a simple "Y" type fuel feed and let the veg oil drip in to the main fuel supply pipe using gravity. A pancake tank under the fuel tank,painted black to absorb heat,could supply warm veg oil via a tap to the "Y" connector 2 stroke autolube style and if it proved that it got warm enough maybe the diesel could be switched off??
It's well known that Lucas pumps do not like straight vegetable oil due to their construction but they could be used if the oil was heated first but of course you have to purge the diesel pump by switching back over to diesel a few miles from home or destination

You would have to do the same!
I never bothered as my bike wasn't used enough to justify the small savings unless you are an ECO warrior and worried about the environment?

coachgeo · Post by **coachgeo** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:21 pm

gilburton wrote:Most cars run at around 80 degrees so your only real option with filtered veg oil is to run a twin tank system and heat the oil up to around that temp.
I think running a pipe round the exhaust has been tried but is too hot. I'm sure some sort of tank and heat transfer system could be arranged round and/or behind the cylinder to pick up excess heat and then switch over when up to temp.
I often wondered if the exhaust could be routed "through" a tank but not actually touching it e.g. tube in tube?
The other option and one which I never got round to trying was a simple "Y" type fuel feed and let the veg oil drip in to the main fuel supply pipe using gravity. A pancake tank under the fuel tank,painted black to absorb heat,could supply warm veg oil via a tap to the "Y" connector 2 stroke autolube style and if it proved that it got warm enough maybe the diesel could be switched off??
It's well known that Lucas pumps do not like straight vegetable oil due to their construction but they could be used if the oil was heated first but of course you have to purge the diesel pump by switching back over to diesel a few miles from home or destination You would have to do the same!
I never bothered as my bike wasn't used enough to justify the small savings unless you are an ECO warrior and worried about the environment?

The problem with lucas is a breakage of the impeller shaft (if Im using the right term) and it has more to do with cold start than when in use. Some expect that it is actually a bit to do with Thermal shock infact. So it is back to preheating the engine.

A hybrid dual tank system is probably better with a bike using blends than a true two tank. As in heat some things as if it was a two tank....... but have it operate as a one tank system with a blend in the tank.

Exhaust heat......... again a hybrid system. wrap a portion of the exhaust with copper line and run a coolant thru it. (or some other exhaust to coolant heat exchanger). Then use a coolant heated flat plate heat exchanger along with a tiny radiator. With an auto thermostat or an electric thermal switch disc and electric valve....... open a Y to the small radiator to provide some metering of the coolant temps your using to heat the fuel. Experiment where you put the exhaust to coolant heat exchanger (copper wrap?) to lower the heat to something more usable. AKA end of exhaust pipe cooler than the manifold. The right spot might negate need for radiator and ancillaries to operate it.

8ball · Post by **8ball** » Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:30 pm

Here's a link to vid for 3 gal (US) biodiesel microbatches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVUiaydiJk

If you don't like to assume that the amount of lye is right for a particular batch of veg oil, you could always run a titration test, but I think that you run almost no risk of hurting a small, dirt simple diesel engine.

David

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:15 am

Thanks! That makes it look pretty simple

sbrumby · Post by **sbrumby** » Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:53 pm

Looks dead easy, but how much do the chemicals cost? 3 galls of diesel £18, if you get your veg oil for free what is the cost of the methanol & lye?

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:58 pm

methanol is about 40 pounds for 25 liters but im sure it can be had cheaper.

Lye or sodium hydroxide is cheap enough to not worry about it. It still means it adds cost. As I dont have any problems burning veg at the moment im going to continue using it. The yanclones are cheap enough that it doesnt matter if I cause damage really.

8ball · Post by **8ball** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:49 am

Here in the states, diesel is about $3.50 per gallon, methanol is $2.50, and a pound of lye is $7. If I get the oil for free (which won't be a problem since my sister is a manager at a fast food restaurant) that means it will cost about $0.60 per gallon to make the biodiesel. Worth it, im my opinion.

Dave

Post by **alexanderfoti** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:43 am

For me, I get my WVO filtered and dewatered for 50p a liter. Not many places give it out for free, and I cant collect enough of it to be worth it for them.

Our diesel here is 130p per liter which is about $7.80 per us gallon. To then convert it to bio, would up it to probably about $10 a gallon.

Whilst technically my engine shouldnt be run on WVO, it seems to be ok when mixed with 10% petrol, so im going to stick with that. Especially as I am now moving to a top floor flat with no garden

Ndraha · Post by **Ndraha** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:52 pm

t's all about cost....
The realitive cost of pure diesel to the feedstocks used to make the bio-portion if the biodiesel is more $$....
Some states REQURE a set %....
Some are requiring a set % in home heating oil.... Massachusetts is one....some states require a set minium of biodiesel...
My guess is the cheaper feedstocks....the waste oils from fryers, etc are maxed out, and the soybean/for oil/rapeseed oil is the main oils in use....and I bet it cannot compete at $2 a gallon....
Gas stations sell on volume....and boutique fuels , even with a higher margins cannot cover what the stations can earn using the tank for other things...or perhaps the $$ tied up in a tank of slow moving fuel...

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