On Biodiesel and other alternative fuel for diesel engine

[desert sand]

Moving the conversation from Royal Enfield topic!

From Dave and Andrew in the last topic, I learned that there aren't many distributor of biodiesel in UK. And there are some in AU but not enough to drive through the country.

I guess that is why a lot of people there (AU,I mean) are into SVO (Staright Vegetable Oil). By the way, I was there in Northern territory and South AU last month. There was a lot of interest in alternative fuel, though.

One guy I know here in US sells diesel motorcycle he makes (from Vicious Cycle: cf. Stuart's time line section,) says that UK and AU are one of the three countries that have most of his buyers. The last one is Germany.

[andrewaust]

Yeah we don't have enough stations to even drive up the east coast, but more and more are taking Biodiesel on.

Straight Vegie Oil works well in the hotter months here, although we still have area's that get well below 0 C, but if you live up in the northern parts it's warm enough all year round.

Things were going real well here and then the Government couldn't help themselves and stuck there noses in it, wanting Biodiesel taxed the same as regular Diesel etc. It kind of took the edge of some manufacturers becoming interested in producing it.

The local council has gotten into the Bio trend, running there garbage trucks etc on Biodiesel, so now we have garbage trucks that smell of fish n chips and crap! Funny how the two don't quite go together.




Cheers


Andrew

[Cockney Bob]

There is a good supplier on the Hastingwood industrial estate in Walthamstow. Then the next I know of is in Clacton or Herefordshire so they are not that common not enoughto make it worthwhile.
The government taking TAX off small suppliers might help although I think it is strictly for the Home Maker.
I have run on straight Oil in the summer but it is too viscous in winter.
I would not try putting paraffin in as I have heard it ruins the main bearings within a few miles.
Bob F

[desert sand]

Thanks, Andrew and Bob for the info.

Well, biodiesel is not known, period. But I know a guy in the US who has been running on biodiesel since 2000. I don't think he makes his own. So there must be a supplier there. Of course, in Germany they have a lot.

I am interested in knowing any of you are running on WVO (waste veggie oil) or diesel that is made from used veggie oil.

[Diecycle]

Bio diesel is popular with the underground here in America. A little too popular for my taste. Biodiesel is not going to save the world. I like it because it is cheaper than gas or regular diesel. But it stops being cheaper when you can't get the used fryer grease for free.

Since biodiesel has become more known more fast food and other resturants charge for their used grease.

Aquanol is another option. There is a guy up in North Idaho who has plans for a carb to use it. (similar to the military's multifuel carbs) If you get a permit for your own still then you could make aquanol for next to nothing. The problems are the stench of a still makes it not practical for us city dwellers and some people have blown themselves up with stills (but this can be easily avoided)

Finally, and this could be a world savior, there are people developing a small car and motorcycle that run on electricity but do not need to be recharged. A small motor, (could be a small diesel motor, my first thought was those 1 cylinder Hatz) Anyway, a small motor is used to generate power and charge a battery. The electric motor has smart technology that only engages the drive when needed. (A car/bike at cruise needs less power to sustain speed) The upshot is the 1 cylinder motor runs continously in its optium range. The indivduals working on this project are claiming a 300 mpg minimum.

On a side note, while the aforementioned electric/diesel technology may be the answer for cars and such, there is a gentleman back east who built a motorcycle with a 1 cylinder Hatz and claims a consistent 200mpg. (50 mph top end)
For me the extra headaches of an electrical drive outweigh the extra 100mpg.

[desert sand]

Yeah, I agree. I don't think biodiesel is going to save the earth. But the diesel engine is so fascinating that I would want to know more about anything that puts diesel engines to work.

Tell me more about the guy who makes electric motorcycle.

In Japan (by the way, I am a Japanese living in US), my friends tell me that some public transportation run on biodiesel on city programs. And it smell like Tampura. Here in US, they say it smells like french fries. In AU, it is like fish & chips. It is funny.

Anyway, I did not know that fast food places now charge for their grease. What do you guys say about the quality? I mean, don't they use animal fat in their frying oil?

[andrewaust]

Hi Desert Sand


I think the diesel engine will outlive the petrol engine for a while, then electric and hydrogen cell vehicles will take over.

Diesel will be around for some time I feel for heavy haulage etc.

Yeah it stinks that they charge for used frying oil - the stuff my local takeaway uses is cotton seed oil with no animal fat at all. Some use a blend of various oils including a base stock of animal fat. Just depends on the takeaway.

Now if fuel was scarce and I wanted to make the land I own run my diesel, I'd consider planting a heap of sunflowers and see how much oil I'd get - have to do some research first , but feel it's better to run straight light viscosity oil then mucking around breaking it down to bio. One thing that would stop me though = no water!

What do the other guy's feel in the forum? If you were faced with an all out oil decline where fuel became unavailable, what would you do! I feel this could happen in the not to distant future, may only be momentary or could be for extended periods.

Another interesting issue that has been around for a while, small light aircraft are going diesel instead of using aviation fuel/Avgas or Mogas = common pump fuel we use in our petrol vehicles. These engines will run diesel fuel or JetA turbine fuel. I guess they could handle bio fuel as well as Kero etc. JetA is just convenient as it's readily available from airfields. The first line of engines where mechanical injection, but now I think they will most likely go common rail. I like mechanical injection systems, as I've herd just how unreliable some common rail systems can still be. Guess I don't like change

We've also got city programs, running council and private buses etc on alternative fuels, one being bio, others hydrogen etc, similar to what you mention in your post.




Cheers

Andrew

[Diecycle]

Desert sand, the electric bike is not in production right now, those who are working on the project are first going for a car.

here is how it was explained to me:

Generally, you don't use that much energy to maintain a bike's speed in cruise mode. It's only when accelerating that you take a big energy hit. The right question to ask is 'do you have the energy when you need it for the length of time you need it?' An electric motor - supplied with adequate amperage - will spin a rear tire up to the equivalent of 60 mph in a fraction of a second. But how the hell do you engage that power to the ground safely and effectively? You must have a electronic control system.

You can't think about this in the same way you think about standard internal combustion (IC). IC usually balances power against reliability; with electric, it's all about control. Quite literally, if you want the bike to perform differently - faster, quicker, more behaved for a beginner - reprogram the control system. This actually is a paradigm shift.

An IC motor has a power range (curve) along which torque is both maximum and minimum. Since you don't drive the vehicle directly off the IC engine, you can operate it at its maximum efficiency point all the time in a steady state. In addition, you can optimize it using precisely tuned performance attributes (induction, exhaust etc.) to get exceptional performance if needed.

So, if it takes 1-2 unit of energy [per time] to maintain various cruising speeds and 2-10 units [per time] of energy to accelerate up to some additional cruising speed, you don't need to generate 7 units of energy [per time] all the time. You may only need 2 or 3. But you do need to store energy during cruising periods in a way that will readily be available for times of additional need.

Andrewaust,
I too looked at the sunflower angle for a while. It is possible to get a press and the raw seeds realtively cheap, but the labor is high and the prue sunflower oil is worth more as pure sunflower oil than it would be as fuel.
The best alternative I think is the aquanol. A still can produce ethnaol out of some rotting vegtables. If there is an early freeze you can have all the rotten potatos you want where I live. Also, once produce sets out in a store for so many days it must be discarded that's another good source.
Intially I had some misgivings about supporting a system that uses water as part of its fueling medium (since water too is becoming more rare as the planet grows) But then I found a guy on the internet who has the plans for a very simple desalization plant.
That covers all the water needs for all rampant uncontrolled breeders and then some for many lifetimes.

[oldbmw]

Hi Desert Sand

Now if fuel was scarce and I wanted to make the land I own run my diesel, I'd consider planting a heap of sunflowers and see how much oil I'd get - have to do some research first
Cheers

Andrew

I looked into this to run an oil fired cooker here. You can reasonably expect about 800 litres to the hectare, What kills it is the cost of the combine harvester to get the seeds. So for heating at least you can't beat a wood burner fuelled from coppiced trees. Not only more productive, it is much simpler to collect and store the fuel.

[navinav]

If oil from algae goes into production maybe biodiesel can save the world. I believe at the moment the highest yield of oil per acre is palm kernel. You can get 600 gallons an acre from palm kernel but it can only be grown in select environments. I believe sunflowers only give you about 100 gallons of oil an acre. Still not too bad for self sufficiency.

On the low end algae researchers are stating 5000 gallons an acre and higher claims of 20000 gallons an acre. I am doing my own independent research on algae and in the US the average use is about 1000 gallons of fuel a year. I did my own math and figured I drove bout 1000 miles a month on my honda accord and average 27 mpg. This came out to be less then 500 gallons of fuel consumed a year. If you talk about diesels. VW can push a car to about an average of 40 mpg without sacrificing performance. And the jetta tdi is still faster then my accord. That drops your consumption to less then 300 gallons a year. If the algae research is true. I have about 1/4 of an acre land. Even if I dedicate .10 acres to algae production that is 500 gallons of fuel a year at the low end. It can be grown vertically in pods and on rooftops. It also overcomes the food vs. fuel argument because algae is high in protein and can be used as chicken or other animal feed. It can even be used for human consumption if it is not grown in waste water. Personally I think there is not enough money being put into this kind of research. Or it is being ridiculed by big business and corporations. Ecogenicsresearchcenter.org has a good book on algae production if anyone is interested. I will try to grow my own and get my own statistics.

[coachgeo]

jatropha tree at a 40% oil yield per nut looks good too. Many farm experements with this nut has not come anywhere near its potential... cause they banked on its ability to grow in dry wasteland climates (deserts of india was where they tried it)... which it can do..... unfortunately its nut yeild is low in that climate. Have looked in a while to see what studies/experements say now.. but it looked promising grown in more fertile and higher water content places. don't want it to replace food farmland though or planted where tropical forrest once thrived.

I would like to see floating barges of soil and trees... onboard desalinization

[smokyjoe]

Biodiesel has seemed to have a niche commercial market here in the Northeast US. Most of the local colleges and some of the towns run their Diesel vehicles on Bio, but some have had problems, mainly due to ignorance IMHO. Of course, this is the touchey-feely green living Northeast US. There is a local food co-op group in Holyoke, MA who have gotten tanker loads of biodiesel by railroad, but I don't know if they are still doing it. Even in large volumes, it is about the same price as Dinofuel, and by the tankful much more. Just for fun I was running my VW on homemade and purchased Biodiesel and then waste veggie oil (using heated tank and fuel line) for real economy. I've test run my Hatz on biodiesel and straight waste veggie, it was a bit quieter on the waste veg, but I wasn't loading the engine so I guess that doesn't count for anything.

About 30 miles north of here in Greenfield a new biodiesel plant is being built, and there is a local guy who sells biodiesel and has been in the business for about 5 years http://www.yellowbiodiesel.com/ Many farmers are planting sunflowers for biodiesel use and a large farm (forgot the name) has switched over from growing hay to canola and they are running 100% of their trucks (they also have a trucking company) on biodiesel. They are using a large commercial press and processor, and last I heard they were going into the biofuels business.

There are a few die-hards who make their own biodiesel, but I've found that the cost is about 50% of buying Dino diesel...... plus about 500% more work so I don't think that making biodiesel is worthwhile, at least not for me.

[bearnyc]

I'm sure most US residents interested in biodiesel know about this already, but I thought I'd add it to this thread.

The NBB's website site a list of retail biodiesel sites on their website under "buying biodiesel"
http://www.biodiesel.org/

Best to call first because they're not always up to date listings.