US engine Reefer unit as a source for diesel engine?

[coachgeo]

US engine Reefer unit as a source for diesel engine? Apparently the most common engine used is the D722 which is rated up to 3600rpm. The 722 has been in production since 1983 and still in production.

Seems the Reefer's though run constant at 1200rpm or so. Sooooooo what is different? IP?

Why would/would not these be a good engine for a 3cyl bike (and a skinny rider). They're approx 700cc and up to around 20hp by factory settings/parts. They are also very light and compact comparatively to other D-engines and seem to be readily available and candidates for turboing or similar to up the HP with out increasing weight? Next model for example (D902) is 20lb heavier. Don't think a turbo set up on a D722 would bring up weight twenty pounds?

http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/nsm/d722-e3.html

* the D722 and D902 are the "Super Mini" 3cyl Kubota diesels and I think the smallest foot print/weight of the US Domestic availabe diesels.

[pietenpol2002]

While it's true the Kubota's are found in reefer applications (Mouse's Z482 as an example), the Yanmar is in wider use with Thermo King and Carrier Transicold here in the states. In addition to the work needed to the governor, the oil pan needs to be swapped out as in reefer units it's an oversized cast aluminum tub that serve a 24/7 purpose well, but presents clearance problems for a bike application. Below are links (posted here previously) to a Yanmar reefer engined bike in Estonia.

http://www.youtube.com/user/miilits001
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZQnN6qP0Ao

http://pilt.delfi.ee/show_original/4837115/
http://pilt.delfi.ee/show_original/4837119/
http://pilt.delfi.ee/show_original/4837117/
http://www.motomaania.ee/wp-content/uploads/laat3.jpg

[coachgeo]

...the oil pan needs to be swapped out as in reefer units it's an oversized cast aluminum tub that serve a 24/7 purpose well, but presents clearance problems for a bike application....

First view I had of this larger pan was it looked to be an Advantage not a disadvantage. It is no wider than the widest point of the engine.

Being that it appears NOT as deep (thus wider and longer, to keep "at least" same volume. ) means there is less height issues with engine and a lower center of gravity when used. If too wide for bikes; it does have added capacity as well, so maybe have a shop that does aluminum work lob off some of the width and; if needed, add a verticle dog leg off sides to keep enough lube volume. This could extend upward along the the side of the lower portions of the block.

Pics of this oil pan I just posted last night in another thread located here:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2105&p=15972&hilit ... ing#p15972

Here they are for this thread too:

[coachgeo]

While it's true the Kubota's are found in reefer applications (Mouse's Z482 as an example), ....

A 2cyl. super Mini Kubota

...the Yanmar is in wider use with Thermo King and Carrier Transicold here in the states...

Yanmar seems to try hard to hide what is the base engine(s) used in refers so other Yanmar users do not cross reference to save money by swapping parts? In particular Marine Yanmars which have higher priced parts compared to tractor engine price for same actual item.

Have not been able to find specifications (height/width/weight, HP/RPM) of the TK refer yanmars yet. they look to be a good bit larger physical size than the Kubota's found in reefers

[pietenpol2002]

Yanmar seems to try hard to hide what is the base engine(s) used in refers so other Yanmar users do not cross reference to save money by swapping parts

Actually, I think it's just the opposite. Thermo King tries to hide that fact that their engines are garden variety Yanmars so their customers don't just head down the street to their local Yanmar dealer and purchase parts at a reasonable price.

[coachgeo]

Yanmar seems to try hard to hide what is the base engine(s) used in refers so other Yanmar users do not cross reference to save money by swapping parts

Actually, I think it's just the opposite. Thermo King tries to hide that fact that their engines are garden variety Yanmars so their customers don't just head down the street to their local Yanmar dealer and purchase parts at a reasonable price.

Probably a bit of both having same hide it desires. Always heard complaints about Marine Yanmar side. That it's division tries to hide comparables to the garden variety to keep selling inflated prices on same part with a different marine part number.

[dethmachinefab]

I used a tk395 (thermo king name for a 958cc 3 cyl yanmar) on my first bike. Did not require any govenor mods. I did half the capacity of the oil pan though.

[coachgeo]

I used a tk395 (thermo king name for a 958cc 3 cyl yanmar) on my first bike. Did not require any govenor mods. I did half the capacity of the oil pan though.

Any suggestions on modifing this pan. Yanmar D722 suppose to show up here Tues and I take it to TX to Curtis in Dec. Did you just lob sections out and Alluminum weld it back together orr? Would would you do different from last time?

[coachgeo]

OK.... soooooooo....... if one was to end up with a D722 engine out of a Refer and Money "was" an object but you want to slowwwwly build up the engine (AKA turbo) and?? What would you do?

PS- if all goes well...... engine will be with me here in OH Tues. Night and to Curis in TX in Dec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJh1CESAD0

Rider... 150-160lb soaking wet (with out riding gear / ATGAT - All the Gear, All the time will save your ass more all the time)
Donor Bike 1997 Triumph Tiger
Tranny - CVT is the plan

[XLerate]

I pray that you'll be blessed with a truly happy success there, Coach! I think it's more than your turn now, long overdue!

[Rhynri]

PS- if all goes well...... engine will be with me here in OH Tues. Night and to Curis in TX in Dec.

Great to hear that. If you need help shuffling the engine around TX at all, I'm still here and would be happy to help.

[coachgeo]

Idea would be to bump the HP up of this engine to something simular to the Lombardini used by Heicko and the Smart engine yet not reduce future engine life to horribly.

Maybe shoot for bumping it from 18hp to 25hp?

Why bump up this one over going with a different engine with higher cc/ HP already.

1. this one was 700 buks INCLUDING SHIPPING
2. It's 30-50lb lighter than engines with higher cc/HP

Sooooooo adding turbo in future is logical....... or is it?

if engine only needs "refreshing" (new bearings, maybeeeee rings) then go for turbo orrrrrrrr complete rebuild engine with oversized pistons?

http://www.kubotapartsdealer.com/overha ... 22-e-25mm/

one area calls it a .25mm ..... another says .5 so not sure which it is.


PLEASE CORRECT ME and answer questions

PRO's to doing rebuild with oversize pistons instead of a refresh and turbo
1. you end up with a new engine
2. adds some HP


CON's
1. cost more than just refreshing engine and adding turbo ?
2. adds less HP than turbo would?
3. lowers engine longevity?
4. lowers fuel milage?

[gearhead1951]

Looking at yer pros and cons I gotta say it all depends on how much of an overbore , is the engine air or water cooled ( more displacement/boost = more heat) and if you cant get oversize pistons that are at or very near to the originals weight then you have to rebalance the crank

[pietenpol2002]

Coach, have you checked with Toyotaracer as to his experience with a turboed 722 in a bike? Also, if memory serves, the 722E doesn't have oil-cooled pistons as it isn't available to the general public with a turbo. I do wonder whether the turboed D722TB that they supply to the military has oil cooling. It's rated at 22 horse but they may have turned the wick down a bit because it's multi-fuel.
Just keep one eye on the pyro and one eye on the road.

[coachgeo]

Looking at yer pros and cons I gotta say it all depends on how much of an overbore , is the engine air or water cooled ( more displacement/boost = more heat) and if you cant get oversize pistons that are at or very near to the originals weight then you have to rebalance the crank

It is water cooled. The overbore pistons are part of an OEM kit and there are no notes I've seen that say it will require a rebalance but I'll ask.

[coachgeo]

Coach, have you checked with Toyotaracer ...

Yeah we have spoke some. If I recall right. He got his engine already rebuilt. I too have not read anything about their being an oil squirters on any of the 3cyl and less kubota's.

[gearhead1951]

Looking at yer pros and cons I gotta say it all depends on how much of an overbore , is the engine air or water cooled ( more displacement/boost = more heat) and if you cant get oversize pistons that are at or very near to the originals weight then you have to rebalance the crank

It is water cooled. The overbore pistons are part of an OEM kit and there are no notes I've seen that say it will require a rebalance but I'll ask.

Then I would say go for it , if the pistons are part of an oem kit then the balance issues should have already been dealt with and it sounds loke you will end up with a like new engine with a bit more displacement than stock and still beat the price of a new engine from the mfg

[XLerate]

Hey, Coach,

Hope these aren't dupes, but there's some Kubota swap & build info at the links below. Mostly dealing with larger engines [1.5L - 2.2L] like I'll use for my sidecar bike swap, where weight isn't such a problem. I think there's also some links in the threads to Carrier Kubota service manuals with some info on power, torque, weights and dimensions but I also found manual downloads with a Yahoo Search. Some chat about pump tweaks, mods for piston oil squirters and turbo info etc. in the various Kubota threads in that forum. The smaller Kubotas use the cassette injector pumps, large use a VE style.

http://www.dieselbombers.com/diesel-engine-conversions/

http://www.dieselbombers.com/diesel-eng ... rsion.html

http://www.dieselbombers.com/diesel-eng ... v2203.html

http://www.dieselbombers.com/diesel-eng ... -jeep.html

Regarding the balancing, no need to rebalance crank itself which won't change with piston change. However if at all possible it's good to balance rotating assembly piston/rod weights whether using new pistons or recycling old ones. A simple postal or beam scale will do for that, with some sanding of the lower piston skirt edge, keeping the profiles the same. Rods may also be balanced to each other but best to carefully polish anywhere that you sand on the beams.

Some flywheel work may be necessary. Just last night I was considering an adapter plate. I see many that use a complicated and expensive custom made sand cast piece, or a buildup out of thick aluminum billet cut with water jet or plasma cutter in CAD ops machines etc. Seems to me a guy could just as well cut two different plates out of thin mild steel using a torch & grinder, one for engine side, the other for trans side. Each plate thickness relative to total thickness desired for needed clearance. Drill each to match the appropriate side, then if necessary use another plate sandwiched in between for final correction of thickness & depths. After indexing, weld all together into one assembly. Not hard to make a simple welding jig to hold indexing alignment of parts while the sparks are flying.

Obviously have to cut out center for flywheel, and do a cut-out for starter through plate. One would need to be careful of heat distortion and warpage when welding but some correction can be made with some flat plate surfacing with coarse emery paper glued to another flat plate for truing up. Whole lot cheaper than the $500-$800-$1,000+ adapter plates mentioned in articles and threads!

An old millwright trick is to 'Ring out the gaskets'. That is to take heavy paper/light carboard and lay it against a surface, taped or held firmly in place, and lightly tap around all edges and bolt holes with a small ball pein hammer. This leaves an exact impression of all outlines and drilled holes. Then use it as the pattern for cutting gaskets or in this example, for cutting your adapter plates.

It's quite accurate when done right. With gaskets you do the same with the gasket material itself, just trimming out the edges and holes to clean up the hammer tracing. There's also hollow punch sets available for punching exact sized holes, so your gaskets or trace patterns are more accurate. Harbor Fright has those cheap, and junky of course, but good enough.

This 'Ring out' method may be used to fabricate a new oil pan for some of those engines using the big cast aluminum pan. Ring out the top that fits to block base, cut that pattern in mild steel, then weld up a pan to bottom of that as needed to fit your screwy ideas

.

[Rhynri]

Some great information there. I really don't think you are reducing engine life that drastically unless you are doing some serious boring to the cylinder wall, enough to give you heat spots or the like because you've reduced the thickeness that much. Especially with an OEM kit like the one you speak of.

[XLerate]

As you say, it shouldn't effect useful life if done properly.

Of course that inludes correcting bores and getting the best possible cross hatch when honing cylinders. I got a whole bunch of flack on another forum where guys claimed I really was a screwup for using a stone type hone to bore out a cylinder .75mm oversize. "Boy, what a jerk!"

Well, that cylinder was absolutely perfect from top to bottom and in concentricity and was honed to perfection when I was done! Mighty slow going but the stones kept it true and sccurately corrected oval shape and uneven wear in different parts of bore. Just the other day I broke yet another heavy duty starter pull rope on it, 3rd one so far, thanks to the HIGH COMPRESSION allowed by the superior ring seal, thanks to cross hatch and accurate bore!

.

[gearhead1951]

almost anyone born since 1970 will have trouble believing the quality and precision that can be achieved using "primitive" methods and hand tools !!

Remember , ignorance is cured by education but stupid is terminal

[toyotaracer9]

Coach, have you checked with Toyotaracer ...

Yeah we have spoke some. If I recall right. He got his engine already rebuilt. I too have not read anything about their being an oil squirters on any of the 3cyl and less kubota's.

My engine is completely stock running 10lbs boost and turned up to 4k rpm , their is no need to rebuild for low boost. Turboing the engine is much easier than an entire rebuild not to mention just because you bore it out doesnt really give you a whole lot of power, its usually about balancing, raising compression and revving the piss out of them.

for now I would buy a small turbo make an adapter and put a return fitting on the oil pan.

[dethmachinefab]

Unless the engine has alot of blowby, leave the internals. If the cyl/pistons are scored/worn, the rebuild would be a must. Boring out to an oversize will not give a noticable increase in hp. A td02 turbo and adjustments to the max rpm and max fuel screws will make a decent hp increase on a budget. I had 15psi and 4k rpm on a stock kubota, customer is still running this set up. Install a pyrometer and watch egts and you will be safe. Stock cast pistons will melt around an egt of 1500 degrees f.

[gearhead1951]

Do like the nascar engine builders are , ceramicoat piston tops , combustion chamber , exhaust port and pipes . Essentially every surface that is in contact with combustion gasses !

If you are going to turbo charge one of these engines and run big boost this would be (relatively) cheap insurance against meltdown !!

[gearhead1951]

www.swaintech.com has good prices and a very good rep for coatings

[Rhynri]

Of course that inludes correcting bores and getting the best possible cross hatch when honing cylinders. I got a whole bunch of flack on another forum where guys claimed I really was a screwup for using a stone type hone to bore out a cylinder .75mm oversize. "Boy, what a jerk!"

Did that to a Cast-Iron Kohler when I was a teen. It was a fixer upper for a lawn mower. There was an engine that shoudl have been a diesel. Everything was super over-built. But yeah, ran a stone hone using an old fashioned hand-cranked drill-press (what can i say, it was smooth and gave the operator high precision with the work.) the result was a smooth running motor until my mother accidentally put hydraulic oil into the oil-fill. Killed it pretty fast.

Sometimes the old things work the best. My model 60 oliver and JD tractors are still running on original parts. They don't build them like that anymore.

[toyotaracer9]

How is everything going with the engine mods? havent seen any updates on the build.