turbo or?

[Banzaibob]

Bob h here, the guy with the Red Devil post. https://www.dieselbikeforum.com/view ... f=2&t=2335 I was thinking about turbocharging this beast. However, reading many of the post about turbocharging has left me to conclude that it would exceed design parameters and melt my engine. I played around with the fuel timing. When advanced, it roars down the highway at high rpm very well. I have no doubt that if I left it advanced, highway speeds of 60-70mph could indeed be possible. The trade off is that it hammers so badly at low and intermediate rpm that the engine will surely fail under those conditions. With the fuel timing retarded (shims added) it behaves very well and produces excellent low rpm response with very little knocking and very good power delivery to shift through the gears. The down side there is that it hits a power wall and simply doesn't want to pull higher rpms well. I can live with where its at right now.

This is my question; gasoline engine have an ignition advance that cures this problem. How could someone rig an advance/retard device to the injector pump? Considering that the Yanmar is actuated by a cam on the camshaft, is there another suitable pump that could be say for instance, electric and therefore actuated electronically? Could a "fuel map" then be used? For my purposes 5º-7º degrees of advance is all I need. Varying the shims while operating would be inexact considering we are talking about shim sizes of around .005". I have even thought of cutting down and separating the camshaft to accommodate a mechanical advance and a "floating" fuel injection cam. Ideas?

[Banzaibob]

By the way I have a question posted in another area. .......


MODERATOR NOTE: repeated question removed from other thread. All merged into this thread so not to highjack that thread and to better organize for future readers.

Look forward to more replies

[alexanderfoti]

An electronic fuel pump with ecu control would be great for things like this, but I think its a bit complicated for this 1 cylinder engine, it could possibly be done with a megasquit aftermarket ecu system, but not sure how the injector pump could be "electrified"

[Banzaibob]

Well in that case, riddle me this; how do you think one would go about finding out what the pressures and volumes of the standard pump would be. My thought is this, if there is a manufacturer out there who made a pump that delivered similar volume could there not be a way to actuate it electronically somehow? One could simply rig a trigger on the flywheel and away you go.

[alexanderfoti]

Thats the thing, I know that the megasquirt can do everything but Im not sure how it could be replicated electronically. I will have a quick google.

What we are trying to do is replace a common rail system. Which I think will be very hard to accomplish!

[Diesel Dave]

Gracious........

Unless you want to spend the next 10 years researching and retrofitting a ECI controlled 3000 psi common rail system for a cheepo industrial single cylinder 400cc unit..............

Ok rant over.

There are jerk pumps that have 2 stage injection timing by having a retard notch in the injector pump plunger (look up Lombardini's 6ld series type AGR from their excellent online manuals).

Don't expect too much, I have one fitted to Sluggy.

[alexanderfoti]

agreed, dont think its worth inventing a new injection system for something that makes 10hp. Money would be better spend on a twin kubota or something similar . I know there is a yanmar l100 2 stage injection pump, maybe look at fitting that to see if it works?

[Diesel Dave]

Just a thought but a turbo has a similar effect when using 18:1 compression, soft ignition at idle then when the compressor starts putting out decent air feed then combustion will be much faster = effectively increasing ignition burn rate, so a similar effect to advancing the timing.

Don't forget you need a 3x capacity plenum chamber or intercooler for a single cylinder motor.

[alexanderfoti]

hmmm, I may start looking into putting my amr500 supercharger on mine. The only thing holding me back is the mods I will need to make to the breather system. Im a bit fuzzy on what exactly I need to do with a pressursed air intake.

[Banzaibob]

The turbo idea is not off of the table yet. I guess I'm trying to engineer a perfect world for this Yanmar. From what I have read in the various posts is that many are trying to exceed what this engine was designed to do. Using the turbo raises issues such as oil temperature, oil pressure, overheating, over-stressing the internal components, etc., etc. From my own seat of the pants dyno I can tell that a modest fuel timing advance could give good high speed operation (60-70mph maybe) without compromising the design parameters of the engine and also all of the drive components down the line. Considering that it runs decent in the low rpm range now, I am imagining a magical device that somehow draws that fuel pump in closer to the engine block an additional .010" from 1000 to 3000 rpm. Such a magical device would not ad extra heat or plumbing. Indeed, it would contribute to the overall reliability as well as the performance.

Back to reality. The megasquirt route appears that I would simply have to find someone who has done the exact thing I want to do, befriend them, and then steal their ideas, design parameters and fuel map information. I don't think I have the time nor the ability to make it successful on my own. A turbo seems to be the only real world solution barring the appearance of said magical device. The problem therein is that since many on this board have done this successfully many times before, they would have to suffer under the weight of my constant barrage of stupid questions (that, by the way I am not afraid to ask). Considering that I am looking for consistent reliability, how does one go about making a turbocharged small diesel run reliably day in and day out?

[coachgeo]

Not ever haven looked close at one of these..... have no clue if this idea wold work.

ifffffff the pump rotates to and away from the block or ??? at one point/axis.... and distance it stays away from block/??? is controlled by shims. Distance via shims is the timing....

If that is the case can you weld on, drill out... something allowing something like threaded rod and fixed nuts to be installed. Turning of this rod would act as an adjustable mechanisim to replace where you now put shims. This machine threaded rod then some how turned via cable or small servo motor orrr..... in that it essentialy makes the IP varialbe on the go timing? Could see a vacuume pump added and vacuum pulls on a lever that via leverage turns the threaded rod a certain number of degrees manipulating the IP to a different setting. When vacuum drops spring pulls lever back spinning threaded rod back to first IP posistion. Simular idea for electric motor/servo such as say a window raise/lower motor.

[pietenpol2002]

Hey Bob, don't be too quick to dismiss the turbo option. If you haven't been there already, check out the posts below from our friend BoxerOtto up in the frozen north. Although we haven't heard from him for some time, at last report his little 418cc Yanclone was still surviving under 9 lbs of boost from a turbo.

First this comment.

don't despair andrew, i also have a clone 418 single like yours and have installed the same turbo my brother has on his gpz. i am having great success with it and will post more info and pictures soon. at 1/4 to 1/2 throtle 5lbs boost no problem, and wide open ive been running it up to 9 lbs up to 4400 rpm. runs smooth and underload sounds and pulls well. mine has a counter balancer in it and so far have probably run it about 500 to 600 km all off road and no issues with it. my prediction when i can run it on the pavement is cruise at 110 to 120 km/hr top speed 130. i have incorporated a few unique features to the installation which have helped with the "pulsing single issue." will explain in more detail when ready. it had enough fuel dialed in on the screw from stock i havn't even had to add more, may even have to back it off a little yet even with boost.

And then this thread.
https://www.dieselbikeforum.com/view ... 9410#p6028

[Banzaibob]

Variable timing via a device that utilizes the "threads" of screws is indeed novel but I imagine that the complexity in executing such a device may just be prohibitive. As far as turbo's go, where would I go to find a diagram or build schematic for such a thing? There are no shortage of people who have rigged turbo's to diesel's online but does anyone know where the technical drawings to such a thing are?

Anybody up for stupid question phase of our discussion? Is the Yanmar L100 oil pump up to the volume and flow required by a turbo? What kind of restriction would I use in the turbo oil feed? I have a few Lockhart motorcycle oil coolers, would the stock oil pump push volume through there with no problem? Perhaps most importantly, is the oil pressure switch port on the left (on mine, right) side bottom adequate enough to flow oil through both oil cooler and turbo?

[DieselFly]

This is the same turbo I used and is the smallest ones out there check out my build and you will get and idea of installing it on a V twin Punsun. So you need one of these http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Turbo-Oil-Feed-L ... Motors_Car_ _Parts_Accessories&hash=item2321b8edf6 and one of these http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MOTORCYCLE-QUAD- ... 19d1f8c208 The line kit has the 1.5mm restrictor fitting. The little oil pumps seem up to the task but if not there is a company that sells little 12v gear pumps that will feed the turbos needs. This should answer most of your questions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_ftgNpOV4

Sean

[coachgeo]

Variable timing via a device that utilizes the "threads" of screws is indeed novel but I imagine that the complexity in executing such a device may just be prohibitive....

maybe... maybe not...... other ideas beside "threads" cam/ecentric, hydraulic cylinder , oil pressure ....

[Banzaibob]

If, say for instance that I use a RHB31 turbo; 1) Am I understanding correctly that there is no need to "hook up" or use the wastegate? 2) Does the 1200-1500cc plenum chamber that you speak of go in between the turbo and the stock manifold or does it go before the air intake on the turbo. 3) The oil line kit that you posted from E-Bay goes from the oil pressure switch port on the left (right on mine) bottom to the turbo oil inlet, right? Would you recommend "pluming" a splitter of sorts to accommodate an oil pressure gauge? Do you see any problems with the oil return from the turbo going directly to a Lockhart oil cooler? 4) All other things being equal, will I have to radically re-time (re-shim) the injector pump? 5) Am I to understand the "PVC" video is demonstrating moving the PVC vent from inside the stock manifold TO the turbo inlet? Does that turbo already have the port drilled, tapped and ready to go?

A lot of questions I'm sure. Many may be stupid, I tend to think asking stupid questions may be my greatest talent.

[BertTrack]

It may not be too much of influence but preheating and compressing the air with a turbo will lead to a sooner initiation of the combustion. Of course when coming off the throttle this will not help at low rpm with everything being hot. And it's hard to regulate.

I don't know how your fuel pump works but some fuel pumps change the start of injection timing as they change amount of fuel to inject. Others only cut off the end of the pump cycle and there are pumps that regulate both beginning and end of the pump cycle. (ship fuel pumps mostly)

If you have the type that regulates the start you may just need to find the sweet spot. But that will allow you to open it up full when doing low rpm and causing more knock as well.

[DieselFly]

I will try to answer your questions in order. 1) the waste gate on the VZ21 (IHI clone) is built into the turbo and set for 7psi. And its the same for the RHB31. By the way the RHB31 is close to $1000 and the clone is $300. 2) The plenum goes between the compressor outlet and the engine intake. If you use a intercooler that will make up a lot of the volume you need and cool the intake temp down. The three times the diplacement in volume is not a hard fast it won't work if you make it bigger or smaller rule. When you look at plenum volume everything on the outside of the intake valve counts intake manifold and inlet chamber etc. I used the oil pressure switch port for my oil source I did a quick flow check by starting the engine with the line unhooked. An oil pressure gauge is a good idea.The oil goes in the top of the turbo and returns out the bottom. The return line is about 3/8" and must gravity drain back to the crankcase with no resistance. You will have to drill a hole in you block for the return line. 4) Don't advance you timing if you like your rod bearing. These engines are ment to run at 3000-3600rpm all day long and are timed and balance to do so. Don't dog them shift to keep the revs up and they are much happier 5) The video shows the PVC plumbed into the inlet of the turbo. this will work but I will warn you now that there will be a lot of blow by that could lead to pumping crankcase oil into the engine. Can you say runaway. On my V twin the blowby is so bad that I had to build a air oil separator to put the oil back in the engine. you may need to open up the pvc port to allow the pressure out of the crankcase or you may find you have oil leakes everywhere And last but no least your oil temp will sore through the roof as the turbo puts a lot of heat in the oil. I run 5w50 synthetic in mine and have an oil cooler.

Sean

[nelly001]

when turbocharging could you leave the fuel pump alone or even retard to get it to idle and pickup smoothly and add another pump say from a smaller horsepower motor driven from camshaft or even lobe on output shaft or flywheel.you would need to sort out a switch on off maybe mount the pump on cantilever so you could reach down and lock in place when flat out lets face it your not going to be going that fast.either plum second pump in a t piece with existing pump connected to injector or mount another injector in inlet.i have thought about lpg injection into inlet when on boost but thats another project all together.sorry if im talking nonsence

[Rhynri]

Could just do what they used to do and have one twist grip for throttle and one for advancement.

[nelly001]

i will be looking at lpg fumigation on boost using a boost sensing switch.from what ive read small amounts of lpg helps the diesel to burn fully and cleaner and produces bhp which is good on these low hp engines.im using a honda 9hp with a turbo and im hoping to add a few extra bhp.