What is your dream bike? USA company needs your input

[Henk]

There isn't any movement by Elsbet for a couple of years.
The concept of vegoil was new years ago but overhauled also years ago.

The cast iron pistonhead looks a novelty, I have never seen it before.
I think it is never produced because there are many problems to solve using a divided piston, top iron-cast, bottom aluminium.

[royaldragon]

Hmm... much research to be done still. Lots to think about. The more design and thought that goes into this the better in some aspects, however, I want to make sure I don't go to crazy either.
Realized I failed to say website for Elsbett conversions. anc.me will get you to their site. Alexander has been very helpful so far. Highly recommended.

[zarquon]

Elsbett had a working and very efficient engine running on SVO 20 years ago. I think nobody will ever tell us what really happend to the engine and to the company.
But the Elsbett-Engine itself is history, of course.

Another "Sad but true" thing.

[royaldragon]

Oh well... Time to make a new and improved engine! Simple... yet efficient.I need a team of engineers! Any one know of any good companies that will work with someone designing an engine? I know China would jump on board in a heartbeat for an affordable price, but I'd much rather go with in the USA and if I must leave than Germany? Japan?

[XLerate]

I'm losing track on this. There's thousands of engine designs already out there, many have been in production. A search of SAE Technical Papers will reveal much. US Patent Office shows patented or proposed patent machines. Some made it to production, some not, but have patent rights for sale.

Are you planning to manufacture your own engines, from base foundry castings to finished product? That's a hugely complex task. If you plan to hire an engineering group to design them that still doesn't address R&D as Research & Development for the engine. Initial test builds, wear testing and fine tuning reliable power output is a very complicated and expensive procedure. Just getting raw foundry castings right is a large challenge.

Every advanced country has unique requirements for Emission Testing and Certification. That's VERY expensive, on top of all the rest. Much of engine R&D requires destructive testing on numerous parts and entire engines done several times. It would take at least several dozen engines to get through the various research, before going into production.

It seems at present you don't know if you want a flathead, valve in head, overhead cam, dual overhead cam, 2-3-4 valve per cylinder, all aluminum, aluminum head - cast iron block, or all cast iron, or how many cylinders etc.

We're talking serious money and a well informed and organized business to keep all the ducks in a row. Hard to imagine success without having a rather strong background in basic mechanical engineering, however that is achieved. I'd suggest a period of research of basic proven designs and see just what makes them good or bad, and learn fundamental technical aspects of same.

You'd save millions of dollars by contracting with a reputable company that already manufactures quality engine products. It's as simple as placing an order. Some companies will 'Special build' an existing design to fit chosen needs. You'll need to 'speak their language' from a technical viewpoint or else let money talk in order to get anywhere with them.

[zarquon]

Any one know of any good companies that will work with someone designing an engine?

How many millions do you want to spend?
http://www.ricardo.com/ and http://www.avl.com are two engineering companies. Both talked about dieselmotorcycles in the past.

I'm pretty sure there is more to do than writing an email if you want to have a serious contact.

You can also talk to Nicholas Hirsch of AED: http://advanced-engines-corp.com/

[royaldragon]

XLerate,
You have valid points and I clearly am getting ahead of myself. The design of an engine would be much to costly to do. I was more or less getting frustrated with what I was, or should I say wasn't finding in terms of engines. I would be more careful what I type as it clearly is misleading. I have a lot to learn and though my grandfather whom I grew up with is an engineer I cannot pretend to have the background he does. I simply have a strong desire to get efficient bikes that look and feel awesome out there.
I have much research to do both on engines, what type of company I would be(llc etc.), and general organization. When I am settled in California come July I will have a much easier time being organized. I have much on my plate here in Maine. I just wanted to start discussions and ideas so that when I get to CA I have something more to start with than just my ideas in my head. This is a problem also with trying to inquire with companies. I am ahead of myself because I have no established business location. I cannot be taken seriously until I am settle where I want to be and I am more organized. So for now I think I must wait on contacting businesses. I thought I could get ahead by asking companies what they would be willing to offer, the problem is they are either ready to start "today" or they don't even want to waist their time with me. Understandably so, as I would not waist my time with people who did not seem like an established company or solidly organized.

Hopefully you all can understand where I'm at at the moment and still continue to offer whatever you feel may be helpful.

[royaldragon]

I have great news! Elsbett technology is still available! I have made contact(finally!) with someone who is still offering conversion kits. His information is as follows should any one else have interest in converting their bikes to run on PPO/SVO veggie oil with only one tank. If your engine is compattable of course.
ANC
Alexander Noack
Marquardsholz F4
D-91161 Hilpoltstein
Internet: www.anc.me
e-mail: noack@anc.me
e-mail: noack.elsbett@gmail.com
phone: +49 (0) 9174 9760988
fax: +49 (0) 32226846372
Skype: alex65noack

After finding 5 other websites linked to elsbett that seem to have been forgotten about I found his site! And upon sending an inquiry he responded! This is perfect as this will make the bikes much more desirable for flexible fuel usage, allowing the biker to add any combination of veggie oil, diesel, or mineral diesel into e same tank. No hastle, no switching tanks true fuel flexibility!
I am a little stumped in the good milage category though.
It seems there is a desire for 3 cylinder to reduce vibration and have good speed. Hover my question is will that be possible to attain 200 mpg with such setup without going to computers?
Perhaps I should start a new thread under technical and engines to find out people's ideas on what engine should be used.
Slowly but surely things are coming together.

[coachgeo]

I have great news! Elsbett technology is still available! ...

THANK YOU for being stubborn. So glad to here Elsbett is still out there. For this situation though.... unfortunate that they seem to ONLY be doing VO related modifications to injectors etc. NO Elsbet engine in the works.

I am a little stumped in the good milage category though.
It seems there is a desire for 3 cylinder to reduce vibration and have good speed. Hover my question is will that be possible to attain 200 mpg with such setup without going to computers?....

Trade off- IMHO no you can't get 200mpg out of a 3cyl...... you have to lower HP engine but the trade off will be usuable speed and reality seems to point to that such a trade in hp/speed for MPH that high will be too severe for the general public. Severe enough that it would be a 45mph moped that would sell mabye in crowded Europe cities, maybe SanFrancisco US. Both mostly to sandle wearing dreadlock wearing 10th year college students working on their third masters.

Reason more and more are going with the 3cyl is when you get right down to it... folk cant afford a toy ..... but they will be more liable to fudge and paylittle more premium for something VERY usable that happens to ALSO be a Toy. A bike that can get it down the highway at safe highway speeds is a GOTTA HAVE. With out that it's level of "usable" drops significantly.

Mayyyyyyybe a 2cyl..... problem is there are not manyquality 2cyl manufactured in the needed HP/RPM range for a bike.

[Curtis in Texas]

My two cents as I, like many here, have gone to sleep at night wondering how we would build a diesel powered production bike if they had the funding.

As I see it, and yes this is an agreement with others here, your biggest obstacle will be a certified US Legal small diesel engine. If the Government (EPA) doesn't approve it, it won't come to the market. Backyard Builders are in a Loop Hole. Professional Manufacturers don't get any loop holes. (Not many let's say)

Secondly, you will probably have to turbo it to have the power needed to get a decent size machine one and ride on the Interstate and achieve the performance American Riders expect.

Third finding a matching transmission that will have the proper gearing and longevity to the hammering a diesel engine will put out will be important.

And fourthly, and I think that biggest challenge, will be developing a frame and Body Work combination that be aesthetically pleasing, comfortable and rideable.

I'm partial to how Heiko has developed the 3 cylinder Turbo Diesel Tiger. Everyone lust after the duel head lighted old Dual Sport Monsters/

So my recommendations are that you find a Japanese Diesel Manufacturer and partnership with him to get one of their 3 cyl turbo diesel motors US Certified. 850 to 1000 cc should be plenty under the hair dryer. Why reinvent the wheel, when it's already out there. A costly proposition that only works if you've got buckets of cash you need to invest. I suggest you look at the Isuzu (Small Duramax Motors) or Hondas small displacement diesel engine.

Now as for transmissions! I think the Harley Aftermarket has been producing a decent source of transmissions that are robust enough to take the pounding from the Big Bore Harley Motors and should be seriously considered as a unit for the diesel given their gearing options and ratio choices.. Sorry, but I'm not partial to a large motorcycle using a belt driven CV Auto Transmission. Small CC scooter Ok, but not a real two up Cross Country Tourer!

Try to emulate the Tiger Triple Frame. And I think the Tiger Dual Purpose Style Body Work will appeal to the greatest cross section of riders. Not all of us want to look like 1% ers on Choppers.

It doesn't have to be a barn burner, but it does have to be able to keep up with traffic. Such as the KLR. Not perfect at anything, but capable of doing it all reasonably for the average riders. They've been building the same bike for almost 30 years. So that's got to tell you something.

As for Fred Hayes Diesel KLR's, he's moved his production, or sold it to a Company in India, to get out from under the US restrictions. Military Machines don't have to pass emissions like the General Public.

Lofty plan!
If only I had the funding. I know a frame builder who would jump at the chance to expand his bike line.

If you need some Employees to get this off the Ground, let me know. I am a Jack of All Trades and Master of none. Plus I know a LOT of people in the right places. Or the people I know, know the right people we can talk to.
Oh, and I'm retired, so I'm available!

Curtis in Texas


Wow, Sorry for the long read!

[pietenpol2002]

You've pretty well nailed it Curtiss. All quite doable assuming you can pull off those 2 critical matters - getting an engine to meets EPA standards and the accompanying truck loads of cash to fund such an endeavor.

It's rumored that the heavy truck lads are abandoning diesel in favor of CNG as they don't anticipate being able to meet future emission standards using diesel. I suppose they're seeing their future in CNG given the much touted cheap and plentiful supply of natural gas that will result from fracking.

[royaldragon]

Curtis,
I will not forget that offer. Would you be willing to relocate?

What's up with the Lupo tdi engine? That seems promising and good perhaps for an Elsbett system. What do people think of lombardinis LDW 442 2 cylinder engine? Looks good for a bike to me. As for the fuel economy... Who knows what could be achieved. I was thinking no computer stuff, but it might be good to utilize possible technologies of today. Personally I would like to have good tech support so people can fix things on their own. Maybe have a forum just for the bikes so people can ask questions and find good answers from our crew and those that have purchased and worked on their own. Somehow I want to encourage others to work on their own bikes. It is good to understand how what we use works. The computerized stuff might move a little into the too complicated relm, but it may be worth it for a decent boost in fuel economy and performance.

It's to late for me to be writing... I have got to get off this electrical devise and go to sleep.

Continuing my gratitude to those who write things, thank you all, and good night.

[Curtis in Texas]

Curtis,
I will not forget that offer. Would you be willing to relocate?

What's up with the Lupo tdi engine? That seems promising and good perhaps for an Elsbett system. What do people think of lombardinis LDW 442 2 cylinder engine? Looks good for a bike to me. As for the fuel economy... Who knows what could be achieved. I was thinking no computer stuff, but it might be good to utilize possible technologies of today. Personally I would like to have good tech support so people can fix things on their own. Maybe have a forum just for the bikes so people can ask questions and find good answers from our crew and those that have purchased and worked on their own. Somehow I want to encourage others to work on their own bikes. It is good to understand how what we use works. The computerized stuff might move a little into the too complicated relm, but it may be worth it for a decent boost in fuel economy and performance.

It's to late for me to be writing... I have got to get off this electrical devise and go to sleep.

Continuing my gratitude to those who write things, thank you all, and good night.

Relocate? Yea, but I'd keep the Ranch in Texas. I have a nice central location in the middle of the USA. Near some of the largest shipping hubs in the US. Maybe you should think about setting up a permanent manufacturing plant right here in my home town of Rhome once you get the thing ready to go into production. Rhome is spittin distance to Dallas and Fort Worth with great weather and cheap land. We have a major Railroad Hub is about 7 miles from my house. DFW Airport is 35 minutes away, and Alliance Air Freight Airport is like 20 minutes away. (Heck, my neighbors have a private runway in my back yard.) Not to mention the Texas Motor Speedway is 11 miles from my house. I have a 3000 square commercial shop on my property.we can use as a start up plant the expand to something bigger later. And the DFW Metroplex has some of the best Defense Manufacturing plants in the World. Like Bell Helicopter and General Dynamics. Not to mention Dell is just down I 35. So lots of brainiacs to choose from. Like I said I've got a lot of resources right here in some very good weather. Plus a very pro business State Government to deal with and some of the lowest electricity rate in the Country.

Sorry I get carried away sometimes. It's a Texas Pride thing!

Maybe we should discuss this off line over the phone. I'll PM you my Cell # and we can kick around some ideas.

I appreciate the attitude about making the bike user friendly when it come to home repair and maintenance. Since I'm one of those guys who wrenches on his own bikes. The only problem I see is if you are going to meet the Tier 4 and 5 EPA requirements you are going to have to consider computer management engine systems. The Lupo 1.2 liter engine would be a good power plant to consider if the weight isn't a problem. I'd have to do some research on that motor.

And it's getting late here too! So I'm going to get to bed myself.

But yea, I'd be willing to come up to Maine to get the thing rolling.

[coachgeo]

A manufacture of diesel engines might be willing to be part of getting one of their engines passed epa cause that opens up a new avenue for sells of their engine (such as CA approved Zero Turn Mowers and tractors). I would look at Kohler since they now own Lombardini

[coachgeo]

...
Now as for transmissions! I think the Harley Aftermarket has been producing a decent source of transmissions that are robust enough to take the pounding from the Big Bore Harley Motors and should be seriously considered as a unit for the diesel given their gearing options and ratio choices.. Sorry, but I'm not partial to a large motorcycle using a belt driven CV Auto Transmission. Small CC scooter Ok, but not a real two up Cross Country Tourer!..

LOL Curtis, your desire for a typical bike tranny is probably based more on your preferences that has come about thru many years of riding bikes. Nothing wrong with that..... just recognized it as a big factor in your thinking. CVT will as far as I know work fine cause they are what is used by 2 and 3cyl micro cars and the Track bike. Even was an Indy Car with CVt that kicked everyone's ass so bad they outlawed CVT's . (least thats how I heard the story LOL) Here is something on it. Didn't read this one. Just did a fast google search http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/05/03/b ... ssion-cvt/

[Curtis in Texas]

But remember for the most part, a Motorcyclist considers himself a Manly Man.
He drinks his beer out of the can and shifts his own gears on his Bikes.
I understand what you're saying, but the Maxi Scooters are having a hard time converting the "Dyed in the Wool Motorcyclist" because of the CV Transmissions used on scooters.
Most of the Maxi Scooter Riders are new to the sport, or guys who have decided they don't want to shift anymore.
Old Guy Syndrome! They Young Buyers are fearful they will not be able to pick the right gears because automatic transmissions are all they can drive. Shifting is a right of passage to many more than not.

I just think that a Diesel Motorcyclist , especially if it's marketed as a Dual Sport machine is going to want to pick and choose his own. Especially if he's going to be driving up and down gravel mountain roads.
I think the Automatics (CV's) should be left to the Scooter Crowds. Just look at the sale of the DN-o1 Honda Motorcycle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_DN-01
It was discontinued for several reason. All the insiders I talked to said it was not selling well because of the transmission. IT is a fine machine to ride, but not enough New Riders going shiftless to keep the product And the ergonomics really sicked.
I've ridden one and found it had no appeal to me as a Motorcycle. Uncomfortable and I never felt in control. Having Engine braking was a big factor for me.

So I take it you got there OK!

[coachgeo]

Marketing wise; what a population of customers "want" ..... tiss be valid points.

[royaldragon]

I edited a previous post to say this but I'll post again just to make sure no one misses it.
anc.me is the website for single tank veg oil PPO/SVO/WVO conversions using Elsbett technology. Alexander has been very helpful so far. They have kits but can also design ones for many engines, including stationary engines/generators. Hmmm...

On another note,
What do you all think of the New Lombardi liquid cooled LDW 442? Its a 2 cylinder deal but is rated for 4400 r.p.m. at 440 cm 3 it seems like a good engine for a bike. I would not go with just the CVT rout don't worry. It may be an option though as many new riders don't even know what a clutch is.
This is the link to make it easy.
http://www.lombardinigroup.it/en_US/lom ... es/ldw-442

[royaldragon]

I ran the engine by Alexander at ANC and he thinks the LDW 442 Lombardini would be a great candidate for SVO/PPO. Moving in the right direction. I think if we did the right ECU programing with this thing it could have enough power for fun and still have great fuel economy. Plus if I go the CVT rout as well they already have one set up for it as an option.

[royaldragon]

I'm looking for all ideas on how to keep these bikes as close to being 100%the recyclable as possible. Im looking for strong material ideas, biodegradable or completely recyclable. Bust a fairing? Send it in and we'll send a new one and recycle the old one. Done with your bike? We'll buy it back and resell or recycle it depending on condition. Crash your bike and we may buy that back too... maybe. But at least we'll take it back to recycle. I need to figure out the logistics of that before sounding too sure on what can be offered. Can't run the business into the ground buying stuff back if it costs more to recycle than what we pay you. What ever the case I will do my best to make it as eco friendly and consumer friendly as possible.

[Willie]

I’m A owner of A origin 3 cylinder Elsbett Engine, The engine is design to run on vegetable oil and build by Elsbett in the 90 years and is mounted( by Elsbett) in A Volkswagen Passat. The engine has 90 horsepower at 4000 rmp, it has no primary cooling system, the engine is only cooled by oil injectors against the bottom of the two-piece piston ,.The fuel system is a PLD system and the engine have A proven mechanical efficiently of 39%.

I you like more details I sent some documents and pictures

With Kind Regards,

Wilco

[royaldragon]

Wilco,
That is awesome. I was told there are still many out there in use today but you are the first person I now know of directly. 39% eh? What's your fuel economy?
I would love to know more if you would care to share. Perhaps private message me so as not to deviate too far from this forums subject.
Thanks for sharing.

-James

[royaldragon]

I have a website now.
http://www.dragonmotors.net/

On another note my family and I are strongly considering moving to Baja California Sur Mexico. I only say this as I don't know how this will play out for the business. I dont want to be missleading and say I am a USA company if I may no longer be living in the US. I will however keep moving forward with the bikes.

[coachgeo]

....I you like more details I sent some documents and pictures

With Kind Regards,

Wilco

please please please share with all of us on this. Would DIE to see this info.

[royaldragon]

Coachgeo is right; everyone should be able to see this. What was I thinking

[Stuart]

I think a business will have a better chance of succeeding if it understands where its customers are coming from and aims to keep costs down for them and also empower them. In other words it should produce a simple kit of parts and sell these leaving its customers to sorce a cheap bike and engine.
The model of bike should be fairly modern and plentiful, the engine preferably automotive but not electronic. The kit of parts should be as small as possible. Anyone should be able to build it without resorting to major modifications or welding.
This approach should keep costs down for everyone in the chain meaning less risk overall.

This has been happening with the Enfield for a while now with some people supplying subframes etc. But we need a more modern, faster and reliable machine.

[royaldragon]

Stuart,
I completely agree. It is my intention to make the bikes a simple as possible with encouragement on others to work on their own bikes.Especially since I have learned to love taking care of and fixing my own things, bikes included. I also agree with using an automotive engine, which is why I believe the Lombardini LDW 442 is a good choice as it has higher rpm capabilities and is designed for use in microcar and other small applications. As far as non electric, I am assuming you mean no ECU. If that is the case than you may disagree with my engine choice.
That said, here is what I think about the engine choice so far.
-I think this engine has great potential as it is small and allows 4400 RPM with 440cc
-It is a 2 cylinder which I think will sound nicer, and offer less vibration than 1. Three may be ideal for vibration but I think that is getting to big as fuel economy is important for my ideas of this company.
-The up and down of this engine is that it has an ECU, I am not keen on this for the simplicity of working on the bike especially for other do it yourself guys, however the up side is that it can help achieve better fuel economy.
-In speaking with Alexander of ANC in Germany he thinks this Engine could be a very good candidate to use SVO/PPO in.
-the other downside of this engine is that it is not very pretty which means more bodywork to cover it up for an aesthetically appealing bike. This means more cost in bodywork as well as more parts to fix/replace if broken.

All that said, if anyone has a better recommendation (one reason I started this Post ) Please offer it as I am open and want this to be the best possible. I do like the looks of the V-twins they just don't seem reliable enough nor good design for a motorcycle. At least what I have seen so far- Please prove me wrong.

[BertTrack]

On the cvt part of the discussion:

Comparing any normal fuel engine with cvt(scooter) to a diesel with cvt ?

I think based on experience with the Track that a cvt with diesel engine is a very nice fit. Especially because you have so much torque on low rpm. The cvt doesn't need to first shift back before you have power. It will of-course switch back to higher rpm's.
But from the moment you open the fuel pump until you have higher rpm's you're already feeling it pull hard. And that's something i've never felt with scooters.
Also thanks to the limited effective rev range the diesel engine it doesn't need to rev that high to get to top power.

So the CVT needs to be setup to operate in close proximity to the ideal load rpm of the engine. Heavy weights to take the low rpm torque. Not too much feedback from the helix in the secondary side.

As for the rest. It needs to pull up a hill @ 50mph 2 up with luggage enough for a week of camping. That's your power requirement. No need to be able to cross fallen trees does need to handle light off-road and be aerodynamically smart. (does a lot for mpg)

[DieselFly]

CVT's work great for all of the above reasons. And yes they do engine brake even thought diesels are not great at engine braking. My friends CB450 that we built into a street tracker(made lighter) has no chance against my diesel. Everytime he pulls the clutch in to shift I gain on him if starting from behind. If starting on a hill the CVT lets the engine go to 3200rpm and holds it there by changing ratio. This allows the turbo to spool up and you are gone. Yes shifting is nice and fun but you only have 5-6 speed in the gearbox to choose from where the CVT is unlimited. I come from the land of the snowmobile and CVT's rule. I tell people that think its wrong that I'm trying to make 100mpg efficency look and sound cool. from 30mph to 60mph my engine only changes 400rpm. Power is instant and the faster you can increase the flow of exhaust gases the faster the Turbo spools. If you want to call my bike a scooter go ahead I don't care because it works. What the Track bikes have that most of us don't is a clutch set that is matched to the application. My clutch has a ton of ratio available which it cannot use all of unless you could get it up to over 100mph. This is because it is designed for a ATV size of tire. Thats why the rear sprocket looks like it came from a dirt bike. A lot of people are using Micro car set ups etc. If you go on CVTech's web site they have a for that you fill in that allows them to spec out the right CVT set for your application. One thing I had talked about somewhere here in the forum was to do a group by on clutch sets. As CVTech to not sell to individuals but sells in bulk. We could maybe order say 20 sets that will work with the average size rear wheel and vehicle weight. And remember think out loud its how we learn

Sean

[royaldragon]

Very intereasting points on the CVTs. One benifit of the engine I chose is that Lombardini offers it with a cvt as an option. though I supose if using a CVT using one of the two cylinder engines would be more feasable. I think liquid cooled is better for biofuel applications though.