A question for all those running Yanmar or Yanmar clone engines. Have you checked the injection start of delivery timing, and if so where is it set. Have you experimented and if so where do you think is optimum? The reason I am asking is that the Yanmar manual I have disagrees with what Launtop (the maker of my clone) says for the L186. In the service manual for the Yanmar L100AE it says 12-14 degrees BTDC. Launtop says 21-22 degrees BTDC. Mine from the factory was set at 25. It seemed to knock pretty hard under load at the 25 degree setting so I set it to Yanmars spec (well actually 15 degrees with the shims I had), and it knocked less but seemed to have somewhat less power. I have it now set at 18 degrees as a compromise but I am not sure if this is the best setting or not. I did read the thread on diesel knock, but wonder what the current consensus is. Does anyone have the service manual for the different L100 series ( other than AE) Yanmars, and if so what is the spec for those.
Also, has anyone played with the opening pressure of the nozzle?
Tim
Yanmar clone start of delivery timing
Moderators: Dan J, Diesel Dave, Crazymanneil, Stuart
-
Byrdman
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 156
- Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:43 am
- Location: Chicagoland, Illinois, USA
- Contact:
Hey Tim,
I know nothing in regards to the Launtop version of the Yanmar LA series engines so keep that in mind!
25° BTDC sounds like wayyyy too much. With the timing that far out the engine would smoke like a chimney! 14~15 sounds correct but again, that's for the Yanmar pump not the Launtop?
As far as injector opening pressure, that's a fun conversation. By modifying the spring you could change the injector firing pressure but it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. You would have a real hard time calibrating it and then timing would be tough!
Also, firing at a different pressure would change the volume of fuel injected. Higher pressure would allow slightly more fuel in but who knows how the atomization would be affected.
I know nothing in regards to the Launtop version of the Yanmar LA series engines so keep that in mind!
25° BTDC sounds like wayyyy too much. With the timing that far out the engine would smoke like a chimney! 14~15 sounds correct but again, that's for the Yanmar pump not the Launtop?
As far as injector opening pressure, that's a fun conversation. By modifying the spring you could change the injector firing pressure but it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. You would have a real hard time calibrating it and then timing would be tough!
Also, firing at a different pressure would change the volume of fuel injected. Higher pressure would allow slightly more fuel in but who knows how the atomization would be affected.
-
Ih8Suvs
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:56 pm
- Location: South Dakota USA
Thanks Byrdman, I appreciate the info.
Yes at 25 degrees, where it was set out of the crate the knocking was pretty harsh. It also smoked quite a bit, but that was partly because the max fuel stop was set so that it wasn't even functioning. The rack would go all the way to its limit without even hitting the stop bolt. I have since set it so that I just get some smoke under full load. Yeah 12-14 is the Yanmar spec, 21-22 is the Launtop spec. It just strikes me as odd that there is a difference as the Launtop is close enough to the Yanmar L100A that parts are interchangeable.
I have a friend working at a Bosch service center here that has the equipment to calibrate nozzles and pumps, so If we were to play with the opening pressure we would at least know where we were going with it. It was actually his suggestion to bump up the opening pressure slightly to see if we could get slightly finer atomization.
I wonder too how much altitude affects where the best timing setting is. We are at 3300 feet here.
Tim
Yes at 25 degrees, where it was set out of the crate the knocking was pretty harsh. It also smoked quite a bit, but that was partly because the max fuel stop was set so that it wasn't even functioning. The rack would go all the way to its limit without even hitting the stop bolt. I have since set it so that I just get some smoke under full load. Yeah 12-14 is the Yanmar spec, 21-22 is the Launtop spec. It just strikes me as odd that there is a difference as the Launtop is close enough to the Yanmar L100A that parts are interchangeable.
I have a friend working at a Bosch service center here that has the equipment to calibrate nozzles and pumps, so If we were to play with the opening pressure we would at least know where we were going with it. It was actually his suggestion to bump up the opening pressure slightly to see if we could get slightly finer atomization.
I wonder too how much altitude affects where the best timing setting is. We are at 3300 feet here.
Tim
-
andrewaust
- Site Admin
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:24 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Hi Tim
I've got a L100 clone in my Enfield. The timing is around 17-18 deg, that seems to give good top end power, but as you know the knock can still be a pain
It all depends on the design of the unit. Some diesels start injecting at 8 deg, and go up to 30 deg on variable injection pumps. I wouldn't go any further than 25 deg on any fixed injected engine.
The engines I have here are all set to high on the fuel rack, causing over fueling of the engine. I've done the same thing and wound the fuel rack stop plunger in "also locking the spring plunger with a ball bearing" so the engine gives max power with not a great deal of smoke at all. The exhaust doesn't have the wet soot like it did before, another sign fuel wasn't getting burnt in the combustion chamber. The exhaust soot is really good now, with little build up in the pipe.
It's got me stumped why Yanmar has a 12-14 deg setting, while the Chinese clones have a much higher setting. I guess they try to tune the engine to produce the best power at high rpm's, as most of these units live there lives running from 3000 - 3600 in gen sets, pumps etc.
The Yanmar clones are a great little engine - just remember to change the engine oil often. I'm changing my oil every 2500 k's - 1500 miles.
Cheers
Andrew
I've got a L100 clone in my Enfield. The timing is around 17-18 deg, that seems to give good top end power, but as you know the knock can still be a pain
It all depends on the design of the unit. Some diesels start injecting at 8 deg, and go up to 30 deg on variable injection pumps. I wouldn't go any further than 25 deg on any fixed injected engine.
The engines I have here are all set to high on the fuel rack, causing over fueling of the engine. I've done the same thing and wound the fuel rack stop plunger in "also locking the spring plunger with a ball bearing" so the engine gives max power with not a great deal of smoke at all. The exhaust doesn't have the wet soot like it did before, another sign fuel wasn't getting burnt in the combustion chamber. The exhaust soot is really good now, with little build up in the pipe.
It's got me stumped why Yanmar has a 12-14 deg setting, while the Chinese clones have a much higher setting. I guess they try to tune the engine to produce the best power at high rpm's, as most of these units live there lives running from 3000 - 3600 in gen sets, pumps etc.
The Yanmar clones are a great little engine - just remember to change the engine oil often. I'm changing my oil every 2500 k's - 1500 miles.
Cheers
Andrew
-
Ih8Suvs
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:56 pm
- Location: South Dakota USA
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for your input. I don't really mind the knocking all that bad as long as it is soft and firm, since, well, you know, we all like soft firm knockers...
Oh well, at least now when I ride my dry clutch Ducs i actually think they are quiet.
Seriously at the factory setting of 25 degrees btdc it was firm but anything but soft lol. At the 18 it is set now it is considerably quieter, but I am still considering going back to 15 or so. When I first set it there I didn't think there was much power loss, but that was before I rode the bike much so I really don't know. I now have ridden it about 1000 miles so I would be better able to tell.
I also had to screw in the fuel stop, when I got my engine it wasn't even in the picture. The pump would hit it's limits before hitting the stop bolt. Do you know what the reasoning behind the spring loaded part is? I locked mine also.
On a completely different note, the extra bearing I put in the primary to support the transmission input shaft seems to be working well. Absolutely no leaks from the primary once I got it vented properly.
Thanks for your input. I don't really mind the knocking all that bad as long as it is soft and firm, since, well, you know, we all like soft firm knockers...
Oh well, at least now when I ride my dry clutch Ducs i actually think they are quiet.Seriously at the factory setting of 25 degrees btdc it was firm but anything but soft lol. At the 18 it is set now it is considerably quieter, but I am still considering going back to 15 or so. When I first set it there I didn't think there was much power loss, but that was before I rode the bike much so I really don't know. I now have ridden it about 1000 miles so I would be better able to tell.
I also had to screw in the fuel stop, when I got my engine it wasn't even in the picture. The pump would hit it's limits before hitting the stop bolt. Do you know what the reasoning behind the spring loaded part is? I locked mine also.
On a completely different note, the extra bearing I put in the primary to support the transmission input shaft seems to be working well. Absolutely no leaks from the primary once I got it vented properly.
-
andrewaust
- Site Admin
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:24 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Hi Tim
Yeah must agree! soft firm knockers are the go
now time to get me mind onto the subject at hand .
I think 18 deg will be OK if your going to do a lot of high rpm running. If your going to go about town cruising on low speeds you could afford to lower the BTDC timing a little - but don't over do it as you are aiming at a clean burn.
Ha! two minds thinking alike regarding the stop bolt spring plunger. This plunger is there to slightly keep increasing the fuel to the engine as the engine speed decreases on full throttle settings. This is done when the centrifugal governor looses its force as speed decreases allowing the throttle spring to put more pressure on the stop bolt plunger acting against the spring pressure, pushing the plunger in.
I found this to be a real pain in the ass, especially trying to sort the soot/over fueling problem out. Id guess it works well with generators and pumps, but as far as the bike goes - I just couldn't get it to work right without interfering with the idle of the engine.
Great to see the bearing in the primary chain case working well. Might look into it myself when the bike gets pulled down in the future "thinking about changing the 17 tooth sprocket to the 19 tooth one I've got at hand here".
Cheers mate!
Andrew
Yeah must agree! soft firm knockers are the go
now time to get me mind onto the subject at hand .I think 18 deg will be OK if your going to do a lot of high rpm running. If your going to go about town cruising on low speeds you could afford to lower the BTDC timing a little - but don't over do it as you are aiming at a clean burn.
Ha! two minds thinking alike regarding the stop bolt spring plunger. This plunger is there to slightly keep increasing the fuel to the engine as the engine speed decreases on full throttle settings. This is done when the centrifugal governor looses its force as speed decreases allowing the throttle spring to put more pressure on the stop bolt plunger acting against the spring pressure, pushing the plunger in.
I found this to be a real pain in the ass, especially trying to sort the soot/over fueling problem out. Id guess it works well with generators and pumps, but as far as the bike goes - I just couldn't get it to work right without interfering with the idle of the engine.
Great to see the bearing in the primary chain case working well. Might look into it myself when the bike gets pulled down in the future "thinking about changing the 17 tooth sprocket to the 19 tooth one I've got at hand here".
Cheers mate!
Andrew
-
Diesel Dave
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1016
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 am
- Location: Essex, UK
- Contact:
Injection timing
The manual for the Greaves (Indian Lombardini copy as used by the factory) pegs the injection timing at 30 degrees.
This had me very confused as when I set it to this the motor would not start.
I'm back to about 14 deg and it knocks pretty hard.
I'm guessing that the fuel in India for farm use is pretty low Cetaine and thus the ignition delay after injection would be huge and this accounts for the injection setting.
As I use 65 Cetaine pump fuel I can afford to back off the timing a lot.
I've been running tests up a local hill after each shim addition to find the max power position and this has come out at 14 deg.
Regards
Dave
This had me very confused as when I set it to this the motor would not start.
I'm back to about 14 deg and it knocks pretty hard.
I'm guessing that the fuel in India for farm use is pretty low Cetaine and thus the ignition delay after injection would be huge and this accounts for the injection setting.
As I use 65 Cetaine pump fuel I can afford to back off the timing a lot.
I've been running tests up a local hill after each shim addition to find the max power position and this has come out at 14 deg.
Regards
Dave
-
andrewaust
- Site Admin
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:24 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Hi Dave
Thanks for posting that one up. Yes your pretty much spot on with the timing, anywhere from 12 - 18 deg usually finds the sweet spot for good power.
Gee the indians must run diesel that is similar to sump oil hay! Yeah 30 deg is getting real adventurous with smooth running of the engine, and as you said - starting would be really hard.
The piston skirt would cop a hiding too. Some injection pumps deliver the fuel charge real slow as well, this may have something to do with the early timing, just depends on the pump and pump components. The other thing is = they got it wrong with the printing "typo mistake", quoting a valve timing figure instead of injection timing?
Some of the chinese clone documents are rather a case of some guess work too.
Cheers mate!
Andrew
Thanks for posting that one up. Yes your pretty much spot on with the timing, anywhere from 12 - 18 deg usually finds the sweet spot for good power.
Gee the indians must run diesel that is similar to sump oil hay! Yeah 30 deg is getting real adventurous with smooth running of the engine, and as you said - starting would be really hard.
The piston skirt would cop a hiding too. Some injection pumps deliver the fuel charge real slow as well, this may have something to do with the early timing, just depends on the pump and pump components. The other thing is = they got it wrong with the printing "typo mistake", quoting a valve timing figure instead of injection timing?
Some of the chinese clone documents are rather a case of some guess work too.
Cheers mate!
Andrew
-
Ih8Suvs
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:56 pm
- Location: South Dakota USA
All very informative. Thank you, this helps. I never thought about the different Cetane ratings for the available fuel, that could sure explain why the variance in specs. I hadn't ruled out a typo or error on the Launtop website either. It's funny though as most of the documents on Launtops website are just copies of the Yanmar literature.
Our fuel in the States is pretty crappy for the most part. The last tank I added Stanadyne additive which contains a cetane booster, and liked the results.
It would sure be nice to have access to a dyno to eliminate my vague human perception of how much power the thing is making.
Tim
Our fuel in the States is pretty crappy for the most part. The last tank I added Stanadyne additive which contains a cetane booster, and liked the results.
It would sure be nice to have access to a dyno to eliminate my vague human perception of how much power the thing is making.
Tim
-
oldbmw
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:24 pm
- Location: near Poitiers west France
Re the knocking.
In France they put about 10% veggie oil in pump diesel. The effect is for a gentler slower burn. More tractable at low revs with less knock , At full throttle high revs it tends to smoke more. Uk pure diesel fuel smokes less at full throttle high revs, but knocks more. So maybe add 10% veggie oil as an experiment.
In the old days before we had VAT, bikes had a lever on the handle bars to manually control ignition advance. Maybe a similar thing could be rigged to alter the pump timing. Likelyhood is that such a system would be easier to fabricate than an automatic one.
In France they put about 10% veggie oil in pump diesel. The effect is for a gentler slower burn. More tractable at low revs with less knock , At full throttle high revs it tends to smoke more. Uk pure diesel fuel smokes less at full throttle high revs, but knocks more. So maybe add 10% veggie oil as an experiment.
In the old days before we had VAT, bikes had a lever on the handle bars to manually control ignition advance. Maybe a similar thing could be rigged to alter the pump timing. Likelyhood is that such a system would be easier to fabricate than an automatic one.
-
Ih8Suvs
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:56 pm
- Location: South Dakota USA
Just a quick question, is it 10 percent veggie oil or 10 percent prepared biodiesel?oldbmw wrote:Re the knocking.
In France they put about 10% veggie oil in pump diesel. The effect is for a gentler slower burn. More tractable at low revs with less knock , At full throttle high revs it tends to smoke more. Uk pure diesel fuel smokes less at full throttle high revs, but knocks more. So maybe add 10% veggie oil as an experiment.
In the old days before we had VAT, bikes had a lever on the handle bars to manually control ignition advance. Maybe a similar thing could be rigged to alter the pump timing. Likelyhood is that such a system would be easier to fabricate than an automatic one.
Tim
-
andrewaust
- Site Admin
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:24 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Hi Guy's
I've got a gut feeling its Bio Tim. Seems like many countries are looking into it, being very similar to putting ethanol in petrol.
Guess we will all see 20-40 percent mixes in the future, guess many people with older diesel vehicles will curse a bit, as bio-diesel isn't real friendly on old rubber hoses and seals.
Cheers
Andrew
I've got a gut feeling its Bio Tim. Seems like many countries are looking into it, being very similar to putting ethanol in petrol.
Guess we will all see 20-40 percent mixes in the future, guess many people with older diesel vehicles will curse a bit, as bio-diesel isn't real friendly on old rubber hoses and seals.
Cheers
Andrew
-
andrewaust
- Site Admin
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:24 pm
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Hi Rick
Yes your right mate! Biodiesel has less energy in it then mineral diesel, so power will be down a little. Biodiesel in formula is said to contain oxygen in its molecule structure, so this helps to keep emissions down - notably the black soot to a certain degree.
I only know this stuff from being a member of the B.A.A BioDiesel Association of Australia http://www.biodiesel.org.au/ .
So in a nutshell Biodiesel has less BTU's (British thermal units) to mineral diesel = less bang for your fuel volume - was going to say buck/dollar! but if bio's cheaper to buy that would be wrong
It might be my head playing tricks, but I'm sure I'm getting a little more power to both Bio and mineral diesel by adding Acetone. If anyone is interested give it a go, but it is at your own risk. I just like to play with fuel additives etc. Before you try anything - do your homework first.
Cheers
Andrew
Yes your right mate! Biodiesel has less energy in it then mineral diesel, so power will be down a little. Biodiesel in formula is said to contain oxygen in its molecule structure, so this helps to keep emissions down - notably the black soot to a certain degree.
I only know this stuff from being a member of the B.A.A BioDiesel Association of Australia http://www.biodiesel.org.au/ .
So in a nutshell Biodiesel has less BTU's (British thermal units) to mineral diesel = less bang for your fuel volume - was going to say buck/dollar! but if bio's cheaper to buy that would be wrong
It might be my head playing tricks, but I'm sure I'm getting a little more power to both Bio and mineral diesel by adding Acetone. If anyone is interested give it a go, but it is at your own risk. I just like to play with fuel additives etc. Before you try anything - do your homework first.
Cheers
Andrew
-
balboa_71
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:27 pm
- Location: Fort Worth, Texas
timing, centane, ethanol rant....
When I started running my clone diesel, last fall, the knock drove me crazy, so I played with the shims under the injection pump. From the factory, injection started at 30°BTDC and continued to around 10°, or so. The marks on the flywheel is all I have to go by.....they could be wrong. As I shimmed up the pump, power dropped off, and knock was every so slightly reduced. After a week of tinkering and building a lot of shims, I gave up and put it back to stock.
The other day, on the radio, they were talking about alternate fuels here in the states, and one listener commented that he noticed a drop in fuel mileage (he drives a large diesel rig, over the road) and claimed lowered centane to be the reason, stating that oil companies are lowering centane to reduce cost of producing fuel. I don't know if that's true or not, but my diesel bike is still running on what ever I put in it. My '06 TDI Jetta gets good mileage (upper 30's) driving around town with the a/c on, so I can't complain. On the other hand, my '00 Ford Focus wagon gets crappy mileage (low 20's) running on ethanol laced petrol. In addition, any food product related to corn is way too expensive these days.... God bless ethanol
Cris
The other day, on the radio, they were talking about alternate fuels here in the states, and one listener commented that he noticed a drop in fuel mileage (he drives a large diesel rig, over the road) and claimed lowered centane to be the reason, stating that oil companies are lowering centane to reduce cost of producing fuel. I don't know if that's true or not, but my diesel bike is still running on what ever I put in it. My '06 TDI Jetta gets good mileage (upper 30's) driving around town with the a/c on, so I can't complain. On the other hand, my '00 Ford Focus wagon gets crappy mileage (low 20's) running on ethanol laced petrol. In addition, any food product related to corn is way too expensive these days.... God bless ethanol
Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville