Lombardini 440cc Common Rail Concept

[oilburner]

Lombardini has developed a neat 440cc CRD engine that puts out 12hp at 4300 rpm - a much more useful rpm for diesel bikes.. The engine in the pics at the link below has a CVT setup for mini car applications that looks like it could be used in a shaft drive m/c setup.

http://www.lombardinigroup.it/modules/p ... .php?IDS=3#

[Sphere]

Do they appear on a pricelist somewhere or are they really just a concept?

[oilburner]

Lombardini has announced the new engine (see Diesel Progress North America article at:
http://www.dpna-digital.com/dpna/200706 ... &cookies=1
Click on the picture to zoom, article is on left side half way down.

The engine does not appear on the Lombardini web site yet, perhaps production hasn't started.

Speaking of Lombardini, one of their single cylnder engines that would be an ideal alternatative to the Chinese clones is the 15LD440. This engine makes an honest 10.3 hp continuous at 3600 rpm, 11 hp gross. More expensive, but as they say you get what you pay for. It has impressive specs and goodies - see:

http://www.frontierpower.com/lombardini/lombardini.htm

A Tier 4 version (improved emissions) of this engine is also announced in the same article as the new common rail engine above.

[Sphere]

I guess a topic with engines and prices and availability/reseller(?) would be a nice addition to this forum. That would make it easier for people without an engine.

Winsun is alledgedly showing their 25HP V2 model on some Chinese fair in April. The 22HP model costs 750 USD, but you have to pay extra for land shipping to the nearest port if you order less than 20. Otherwise I guess sea freight + VAT + import duties would amount to another 750.

[Sphere]

Lombardini pricelist for Holland:

http://www.romotech.nl/pdf/prijslijst%2 ... 202008.pdf

The 850cc twin makes me think of the enfield centaurus mod mmmm, even though it's a ruggerini engine.

[ArnoDeuker]

As I heard it is in fact the same motor with some details better done than the Ruggerini. In fact Lombardini bought Ruggerini some years ago so its all the same.

oily greetings
Arno
http://www.movegreen.de/component/optio ... 5/lang,de/

[oldbmw]

If this engine has variable timing built into the common rail electronics, then it really will be the engine of choice for many, myself included.

[oilburner]

I found a PDF with loads of information - dimensions (20" high X 18" wide), functional diagrams of fuel system, lubrication system, some wiring diagrams, parts diagrams etc for the new Lombardini common rail engine.

Note the twin balance shafts, 3 main bearing crankshaft.

I think this engine has serious potential, but it may also be potentially serious money.

Go to this link and download the PDF file LDW 442 CRS

http://service.lombardinigroup.it/engli ... mnu_gb.htm

Enjoy

[Sphere]

Dimensions don't seem all that bad, looked much bulkier.

[oldbmw]

These will probably suit a Moto Guzzi or BMW/Ural/Dpner but the placement of teh ring gear will make it difficult to implement on an Enfield. also the main bearings being shells might not like transverse loads so would perform better as an inline installation....

but a 440cc twin should be relatively smooth

[Sphere]

Better strike out BMW as well unless you want to pay a bundle to alter the gearing.

[oilburner]

BMW gearing isn't a problem with this engine. It runs at 4300 rpm - good for 76 mph.

[Sphere]

also the main bearings being shells might not like transverse loads so would perform better as an inline installation....

Rethinking this point, from the picture it would seem that the suggested CVT would also cause transverse loads, so ruling this engine out for an Enfield may be overcautious?

[oilburner]

sphere wrote:

Rethinking this point, from the picture it would seem that the suggested CVT would also cause transverse loads, so ruling this engine out for an Enfield may be overcautious?

The Daihatsu D950 allows 100 percent shaft or belt load on the flywheel end, 100 percent shaft and 70 percent belt on the crank pulley end.

+++

The stroke of this engine is only 60.0mm - less than a BMW boxer engine at 71mm. With the low piston speed it would run all day at 4000+ rpm with nary a worry.

[Sphere]

I don't follow sorry. Daihatsus probably don't fit Enfields very well.

Have you now (on second thought) concluded that this engine probably doesn't care diddly about transverse loads when mounted in an arrangement common to Enfields?

[oldbmw]

BMW gearing isn't a problem with this engine. It runs at 4300 rpm - good for 76 mph.

Actually that gearing is about as good as you are likely to get as 76mph is about as fast as you can go with 12 hp.

I will ride my own bmw (1985 R80RT) anywhere from 3-5 k depending on my mood. So that engine would be bang on for me

[oldbmw]

also the main bearings being shells might not like transverse loads so would perform better as an inline installation....

Rethinking this point, from the picture it would seem that the suggested CVT would also cause transverse loads, so ruling this engine out for an Enfield may be overcautious?

I dislike the idea of using white metal bearings for side loads, Although my lathe uses a white metal headstock bearing and is still good, although it had to be replaced in 1933 when it was reconditioned. Here I think the ring gear would get in the way. It may well be possible to get around this by running the primary chain sprocket on a short outboard shaft driven inline running between a couple of ball or roller bearings ?
This would necessitate using outboard bearings for teh clutch hub as used in the bekedorf Punsun V2.

I will admit to habitual over engineering

[Sphere]

Oh, confused oldbmw/oilburner. Sigh.

[Sphere]

I think this engine is commonly used in Ligier cars now. But I seriously wonder about the 12 horses at 4300, it only cranks out 4kW at 3400rpm.

[Stuart]

I'll add that original article here in case it goes missing We really should keep our eyes on developments like this because common rail = higher revs = better speed = (importantly), more acceptability for our cause & beliefs here.
People will always be nervous of the electronics but wasn't there that same feeling when electronic ignition came along I don't remember seeing the roadsides littered with cars and bikes after that introduction.
If anyone finds anything along these lines out there then we should embrace it and put the details up for all to see (perhaps in the common rail section).

Here's what I've found on this: http://www.lombardinigroup.it/lombardin ... dw-442-crs

[zarquon]

It's hard to get concrete informations about this engine/drive train.
Something additional can be found at Ligiers site: http://www.ligier.de/aktuelles/58-neuer-dci-motor
Well this is the german site. Same informations can be found on the internatinal site: http://www.automobiles-ligier.com/index ... view&id=45

There is a 440cc diesel twin with common rail. In the Ligier microcars it doesn't run with full power. The complete engine should look like this.

[Stuart]

All complete with CVT as well. I wonder what state of tune it comes in, if, as you say, it does come in any at all, it being a concept. If it could be tuned to give max revs and then backed off a notch to stop it ever going into 'Limp home mode' it would be interesting to say the least.
If we can get engines like this we've gotta start using them. We have to get over this technology barrier and get guys to build using common rail engines then it will be the second wind we need.

[Sphere]

Exactly. I'm wondering about the trim as well if you would pull it from a Ligier. It will probably be tough to reprogram the CDI to fit motorcycle needs. This is assuming that it will not give 12 HP because it's rev limited in a microcar.

[bhtooefr]

I was actually just looking into this engine for a four-wheeled enclosed project idea that I was thinking of. (A motorcycle conversion will be a far easier project, though, and I think I'd do one before I'd do that four-wheeled project.)

I suspect cost is going to be sky high, based on the cost of Lombardini's older FOCS (indirect injection with pump-nozzle) engines without a CVT, that this is meant to replace - and this is an electronically controlled common rail engine.

The Ligier applications are 4 kW, or about 5.36 hp. 4 kW is a legal limit, it seems. It's not just a rev limit thing - the 4 kW engines hit their hp peak at like 2400 RPM, and hold it to 3700, due to the artificial restriction, IIRC. That said, the higher power engines do hit 4 kW sooner than the 4 kW engines, IIRC. (Don't have the datasheet in front of me.)

Tuning the ECU could be very easy, or very difficult, depending on how well documented the maps are, and if there's encryption. Alternately, it may be possible to simply order a replacement ECU for the higher power engine, and install that.

For a trike that uses the drivetrain as-is, the reduction gear/differential that's included is going to be completely unsuitable. (For a two-wheeler, you'll be throwing it away anyway, so...) I did the calculations based on a 105/70T14 tire (the tire that I decided on years ago for the four-wheeler project I was planning, because it's cheap, lightweight, low rolling resistance, widely available, and the fact that it's a spare tire should be outweighed by the fact that the four-wheeler should be under 1000 pounds,) and top speed was going to be something like 40 MPH. Lombardini does have other reduction gears that may be more suitable, though.

[SirDiesel]

does anyone know a calculator link or know the sums to work out top speed based on gearing, weight etc?

i'm intere sted to see what a 12ish hp engine can do in a project idea i had

[alexanderfoti]

Any idea on pricing or availbility in the uk?

[coachgeo]

Any idea on pricing or availbility in the uk?

Lombardini which I believe is manufactured in Itally is wayyyyyyy more available in UK than USA. Even though Lombardini is now owned my Kohler which I think is a USA based corp. ... we don't get much of their stuff. They bought/merged?? them only a couple years ago.

[alexanderfoti]

I have tried to get pricing/availablility information from a couple of authorised UK distributors and so far I have had no response

[alexanderfoti]

I have had a reply from a UK distributor, they have asked some more questions regarding its use and if its for OEM use or one off and what I am going to use it for.

I am yet to hear any pricing

[coachgeo]

ahhhhhh... wonder if that means that model exist on paper and in prototype but not actually "in production". They might have been hoping that size would fill a nitch needed by manufacturers and they'ld get enough orders to start putting it in production. For all we know..... they might be close to that figure. Hope so.