Track T800CDI review by MCN

[Dan J]

This has just been posted on the MCN website...
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/ ... le-review/

Without having ridden the bike, I can understand some of the points raised in the review ,but at the same time get the impression the writer hasn't quite understood the principle of the bike.

Some interesting comments from regular MCN readers below the article as well.

Your comments and thoughts?

[Diesel Dave]

Notwistanding the target audience for MCN they do have a point at least from an economic point of view, the economy will never repay the purchase cost but that's perhaps missing the point. (If it was then a new Honda Innova will beat your Yanma/Enfield on both economy and purchase cost and perhaps leave you behind on a motorway run too; but perhaps the thought of riding a step-through is just too far removed from the Biker ideal)

At the present time our little band of dieselbike experiments are the first steps onto a new arena for propulsion, since the beginning of time motorcycles have been petrol powered, as were cars up to the 1980's and in many way's it runs against the needs of a motorcycle which have required light and powerful engines rather than torquey economical and heavy. The T800CDI in all it's technical glory is still a transplanted car engine, looking back into motorcycling history there have been a few petrol engine into bike transplants (the Munch Mammoth and Quasar spring to mind) and all have been of marginal interest to the mainstream, and treated to similar reviews from the press.

As more advanced diesel engines are developed (and I include the new offerings from BMW and Audi in this) the technology may cascade down into the motorcycle world but it's doubtful. More likely is the hydrogen/ethanol fuel alternatives will become more widespread and the motorcycle world will welcome these with open arms as both are capable of delivering a lot of power from engines not dissimilar to the current crop.

For myself I feel really glad that I discovered the dieselbike world when I did, I enjoy being apart from the mainstream and the diversity of the bikes I see at the rallies keeps me interested. No doubt if I am proved wrong and all new bike ranges in 2011 will have a diesel in the range I'll loose interest and move on into steam powered bikes

We each have our own reasons for becoming involved in dieselbiking, my own introduction started from petrol Enfields when I wanted something different and more reliable; Sluggy has certainly repaid his purchase cost a few times over in commuting duties but the Tiger never will.

Moreover I enjoy being part of a community which this forum and the Big Knock/Hamm rallies bring together, a nicer bunch of people would be difficult to find.

So I shall remain a dieselbiker and happy to be part of an exclusive community, the more the press 'don't get' dieselbikes the more I shall enjoy them.

[Cockney Bob]

Me I ride mine because it is the nearest I can get to Vintage bike riding without having a vintage bike.
Its good we have so many other like minded souls in the UK and having Dave around is a good thing.
I am only happy I can now kick the bloody thing over.
Bob

[coachgeo]

Has anyone done the math to see if what they state is correct. At 100mpg I don't see thier math of not repaying for the purchase statement correct. Also..... in what comparison is it to savings compared to buying new stadarad bike and petrol?

[Sphere]

This is difficult to calculate exactly, but I'll give it a whirl. Let me list a few numbers:

- BMW R1200GS: 14270 euro
- Track 800: 17500 euro
- Shell litre of diesel: 98 cents
- Shell litre of petrol: 135 cents
- BMW R1200GS: 17.4 km/l
- Track 800: 33 km/l

So, purely based on fuel cost, you need to drive for 70k km to break even. However, this does not account for depreciation.

Now, notice how in Holland diesel and petrol prices are significantly different. Then, remember that this review is for a UK magazine, I will do the math again, in sterling:

- BMW R1200GS: 9100 sterling
- Track 800: 15000 sterling
- UK litre of diesel: 103p
- UK litre of petrol: 101p
- BMW R1200GS: 17.4 km/l
- Track 800: 33 km/l

After recalculating, you'll notice that you need to do a staggering 220k km (3 times as many!) in the UK to break even. Perhaps this makes it easier to understand the tone of the review. If I recall correctly, the same applies to diesel prices for the US of A.

[oldbmw]

I am not so sure about the costs. Clearly it is targetted at and looks like the 1200GS, so how much do those cost??? I think in its lifetime if you take all running costs into account it ought at least to break even over 100K miles. 100K miles at 50mpg= 2k gallons. so at 100mpg you would save 1000 gallons about £4500.
For me I would need a carrier with a set of steps in order to mount the thing...and possibly a set of stabilisers as fitted to some Harleys.... ( I kid you not, you can get stabilisers for Harleys). Maybe I would be better off with a trike?

It did look good, and if I had four feet long legs and a bank balance to match I would be tempted, certainly if i was in the market for a big BMW this would be an alternative.

Sphere you snuck that post in whilst I was writing mine

[Crazymanneil]

Good spot Dan, I was just wondering when this would come out. As you also mentioned the comments are revealing. It seems to me that MCN have lost touch with their readership a bit.

I think I am more or less in Dave's camp and couldn't have put it better. I perhaps fall into the "Doomer" catagory of believing times will get harder with fuel prices etc and it seems sensible to do something about it. To me the writing is on the wall and I've given up trying to convince other people who don't "get it". If this turns out to be wrong then so be it, but either way I've got to meet a lot of great people. I'm not sure diesel bikes would be the same if it were brought to the masses but then again not many people even ride bikes overall in the UK?

Regardless of what you think of Erik (and nobody is perfect), you have to at least respect him for putting his bike "out there" at the potential cost of negative people. At least he's trying to do something new where everyone else's solution seems to be to wait for the government or someone else to save their sorry ass.

Having ridden the bike myself I don't think all of the MCN review was justified (particularly the tractor references) although I respect their right to have an opinion. I always thought the CVT would be a hard sell in the UK in fairness. I really have to wonder if they just didn't want to work on a Saturday or something? The bike is not everyone's cup of tea but at least its good to see stuff like this happening and new things being tried.

Oh and nice of them to mention the diesel bike rally (not).

Ok rant over now, count to 10....

N

[LocomotiveBreath]

I think Erik has done a fine job, and as for pricing of each and break even prices is BS. I'd rather have a diesel which gives me a choice of fuels, and the ability of biofuels which gassers don’t, and gassers really stink and run on poison 100% of the time! Period!

As for the review, look who's paying the writers salary, the magazine sponsors that sell gasser garbage and parts are, very bias you think?

If you want a BMW or performance or to keep up with the Jones’s, chances you’re not in this forum.

I’m done now.
Dave

[Cockney Bob]

Yes Dave is Correct.MCN has to support those who advertise in its pages and the main stream Bike manufacturers .It would not make money or even exist if it did only reviews of Diesel Bikes or came out in favour of such.Remember it has always been in this situation.In the 50s and 60s the Magazines had to give good reviews of the British bike scene even though most british bikes were still just upgraded 1930s designs with poor quality control and old fashioned under resourced techniques.
Remember there are Lies Damn Lies and what you read in the papers.
Bob

[LocomotiveBreath]

Yes Dave is Correct.
Bob

Wow!, I was correct for change, I'm going to have a great day today. Thank you Bob

Dave

[Dan J]

I think Bob meant the other Dave

I think all of the above sums up my feelings very well. My interest in the possibility of a diesel bike had come from the commuting costs of the train in to London plus I love the idea of the low fuel consumption and the possibilities of running on biodiesel. What persuaded me into "getting involved" had more to do with this forum and the reception I received down at the Bat & Ball when I visited last year. One of the attractive sides to the current diesel bike scene is that anyone who has got one (and thus turns up for rallies and is involved with forums such as this) is generally interested in their bike and its workings, interested in diesel biking in general and probably has something on their bike that you don't and can learn from. This is a good part of what makes it all interesting and appealing for me. I had a Suzuki Bandit previously - who on earth wants to go to a Bandit rally where several thousand identikit bikes all show up?

I wish Erik every success with his bike. He's clearly not trying to take over the world but what he has got is a marketable product that is going to be of great interest to a certain type of biker. I think to that end he's going to be very successful and good luck to him. The MCN review is reflective of so many restaurant and media critics - it's so easy to be critical of the work and creations of others when you are paid to be. And of course don't have the ability to create something similar yourself... Credit to Erik for doing what he's done - which is create a pretty outstanding looking bike (irrespective of engine) from the ground up. I note in the review there was no thanks to Erik for letting some oik from MCN come down and ride the bike. Doesn't encourage future bike builders to give them a warm reception does it?

In the meantime, as Diesel Dave suggests, half of the enjoyment comes from the community aspects of all this. It is such an easy going bike scene - no politics (as Stuart has pointed out elsewhere often ruins previously enjoyable "clubs") and people enjoying it out of their own choosing. Coupled with the Billingshurst and Hamm rallies which are a simple "turn up if you want to" type of affair I think I've found the perfect biking community. Something I never thought I'd have the slightest interest in...

[Cockney Bob]

Whilst Diesel Dave is Right as well I did in the previous post mean Locomotive breath Dave. He was expressing his disdain for Journos in particular.
Yes No politics on this forum they cause trouble on others.
I loved the Track however My wife would never let me spend that sort of money on one.
Linda believes all Motorcycles to be the work of the Devil and has made it her mission to save me.However she is only partially successful.
Bob

[coachgeo]

part of my point was the Break Even thing.

There is NO break even. No such thing in the vehicle world that is measurable by dollar and cents.

counting ONLY what is measurable it comes down to total cost to drive your yearly miles in fuel and maintainance PLUS cost of the vehicle.

Compare that to other bikes.

Figures have been posted for the Track by Sphere but was not posted for the other bike so no comparison is yet done.

[Sphere]

Apparently you missed the part where I compared the Track to the Beemer.

[Cockney Bob]

Another point to consider when looking at the track bike is that it would not run on vegetable oil or even Bio diesel.It has that coomon rail engine and the technical electronics set up that would preclude such use.
One of my reasons for liking my Diesel is it runs on anything.
Bob

[coachgeo]

Apparently you missed the part where I compared the Track to the Beemer.

Im probably miss understanding you in someway but when I read your post showing your math I see only calculated break even results for the Track bike. As in I see that you listed Track bike raw data AND put the track bike data thru a break even formula with a posted result; do not see that with the Beemer.. only the data but no results from running it thru the break even formula .

[coachgeo]

Another point to consider when looking at the track bike is that it would not run on vegetable oil or even Bio diesel.It has that coomon rail engine and the technical electronics set up that would preclude such use.
One of my reasons for liking my Diesel is it runs on anything.
Bob

Vegitable oil straight you are correct.

The common rail diesel should have no problem in Biodiesel. The burn characteristics of bio-d in the cylinder is so simular to diesel that the computer controlled ignition timing should be fine even though its programed for diesel. You are correct in that if you could get in there and reprogram (or fool the program) and change the ignition timing to be more exact for the burn characteristics of Bio-D it would be better. Fact probably even better fuel milage and same or better power.

Winter use winterized diesel for fuel if you even ride the bike in the winter.

[Sphere]

Ehm. Break even is always relative to something else. In this case, Track vs. Beemer. So if you buy a new beemer, and drive it for less than 70k km in its lifetime in Holland, it's the cheaper choice. If you do the same in the UK, the beemer will be the cheaper choice for 200k km.

You make it sound like it is possible to calculate break even with one set of data, which is clearly impossible. So, what is it exactly that's missing? I would be happy to do the math.

As in I see that you listed Track bike raw data AND put the track bike data thru a break even formula with a posted result; do not see that with the Beemer.. only the data but no results from running it thru the break even formula .

[Dan J]

No-one says the bike has to break even eventually over another. The added fuel consumption is a massive benefit but I guess for at least a good percentage of prospective buyers of this bike it'll be more about long distance touring/less refuelling/ease of sourcing fuel when touring in lonely places. Some of it is about paying the money for something better and greater - anyone who can afford a £15k bike isn't going to be worried about the price of a tank of fuel but might appreciate the lower environmental impact or other benefits as above.

It's a buy with your heart rather than your head kind of bike. Especially if you're a diesel biker

[TedV]

for the US folks... 137K miles to break even. It's nice to have a goal Wonder if it would last that long.

280K miles on my Jetta Diesel
somebody on the CB250 Nighthawk group rode his lil two-fiddy over 100K miles and still going I think.

[coachgeo]

Ehm. Break even is always relative to something else. In this case, Track vs. Beemer. So if you buy a new beemer, and drive it for less than 70k km in its lifetime in Holland, it's the cheaper choice. If you do the same in the UK, the beemer will be the cheaper choice for 200k km....

This is difficult to calculate exactly, but I'll give it a whirl. Let me list a few numbers:

- BMW R1200GS: 14270 euro
- Track 800: 17500 euro
- Shell litre of diesel: 98 cents
- Shell litre of petrol: 135 cents
- BMW R1200GS: 17.4 km/l
- Track 800: 33 km/l

So, purely based on fuel cost, you need to drive for 70k km to break even. However, this does not account for depreciation......

assume you mean the Track's break even here. What was the formula to get to 70k?

Now, notice how in Holland diesel and petrol prices are significantly different. Then, remember that this review is for a UK magazine, I will do the math again, in sterling:

- BMW R1200GS: 9100 sterling
- Track 800: 15000 sterling
- UK litre of diesel: 103p
- UK litre of petrol: 101p
- BMW R1200GS: 17.4 km/l
- Track 800: 33 km/l

After recalculating, you'll notice that you need to do a staggering 220k km (3 times as many!) in the UK to break even.....

Sorry for my not being a quick math person. Assume you mean Track bike again here and used same formula as used above what ever that was.

from the first post I "noticed" only raw data on both bikes AND break even calculation result using an unposted formula for the Track in two countries. (70,000 & 220,000) What I do not "notice" is a break even calcuation result for the BMW in Holland and UK to compare the Track Figures with. In your next message you did mention 200,000 for Beemer in UK. Still no metion of how these figures were calculated.

What would it be in Holland?

Just to clarify..... which is which?... Holland is in Sterling or is that UK? Confused cause I thought UK was in Euro. Read by a person not familure with that side of the country its hard to tell from the text.

again though Im sure if I was a quick math person I would have "noticed" the unwritten BMW figures your comparing with in your first message from the start. I appologize for my lack of math mind.

not talking facetiously just... openly admitting I'm stupid to notice some of the things you mention

[Sphere]

I think you go wrong at the very definition of break even. It just means, that at a certain point option A becomes more desirable than option B. Doing the math, and deciding when A is more desirable than B implies doing the math for when B is more desirable than A. There is no need to do another calculation, it would still yield the same figures.

So you can read them any way you want:

In Holland, the Track is the economical choice when you ride more than 70k km.
In Holland, the R1200GS is the economical choice when you ride less than 70k km.

At the break even point, there is no reason to choose A over B, based on the conditions that determine break even.

If you rode exactly 70k km with the bike, then crashed it/tossed it for no money, you could base your choice solely on which bike you prefer.

As for the formula, I was lazy and took Excel. I made it calculate, based on km/l and fuel price, how much money I would spend riding 1000km. Then I took 2 columns and extrapolated it to 300000km. Then, there comes a point, where the price difference between Track and BMW is exactly the same as the difference in cash you have to spend on diesel or petrol. This is break even.

[coachgeo]

I think you go wrong at the very definition of break even. It just means, that at a certain point option A becomes more desirable than option B. ....

Same defenition in mind a "break even POINT" for each bike. Was just expecting to see both bikes break even points listed so one could compare how far apart from each other they are.

As for the formula, I was lazy and took Excel. I made it calculate, based on km/l and fuel price, how much money I would spend riding 1000km. Then I took 2 columns and extrapolated it .....

whew... ok.. maybe I aint so dumb after all You used a spread sheet. The way you used the term "notice" several times; thought I should be easily "noticing" where the figures come from off the top of my head.

Thanks for claifying.

[sbrumby]

I think this post is getting a bit daft now. For one thing comparing the Track to the RG1200GS is like comparing a land rover to a hummer. An off-roader it aint, a tourer it aint, did anybody not notice the only thing behind your bum is plastic
(no frame) so quite difficult to hang your touring gear off. While the engineering in the Track is excellent, it is too radically different to catch on. A few might get sold to Burgman riders (Automatic flying armchairs) but they will have to be quite well off. Also carrying all that electrical gear that was suffed in the left hand side plus the computer, it would have to be bullit proof or else you would spend a lot of time going home in the back of a van.

[Cockney Bob]

Yes Sam I like my diesel as it requires no electrics now I can kick start it .
No power any old vegetable oil or Dyno diesel.Simple slow Noisy .
I liked the look of the track.I am glad there are people who can do this sort of thing .However it is expensive and complicated and as you say not much use for touring or heavy load carrying.
Could it handle a side car.
Bob

[coachgeo]

Well that sucks you got nothing to hang touring boxes/bags off of. hmmmmmmm.. is their a place to weld/clamp brackets to swing around the back for a tow hitch so you can drag a pull behind storage box?

[Stuart]

I've just posted my impressions of the bike which I think are a bit more accurate
http://www.dieselbike.net/T800CDI/T800CDI.html

Stuart

[Sphere]

Excellent stuff Hopefully I can get my grubby hands on one some day.

[Dan J]

Great review Stuart. There is always an added pressure of being the owner of both website and rally to come up with these things but I think that was a fair and balanced review and does the bike justice. Erik has made the most convincing commercial diesel bike yet - if no-one tries then these things never move on and develop. Half of that is about others discovering these new inventions, so to speak, and building on them.

Neil is probably right to be a "doomer". Irrespective of fuel prices maybe lowering a little (in the UK), in the medium to long term (let's say 5+ years) it is going to become more and more unacceptable on a cost, political and social level for cars manufactured and driven anywhere in the world to be anything other than extremely fuel efficient. That may well be effected by increased cost of both fuel and taxes levied on it. The attention is very much on cars at the moment but once manufacturers start churning out cars that will achieve much higher fuel consumption (and fuel costs will rise likewise, tax revenue is driven by car drivers in the UK, not the fraction of a percent of fuel used by bikes) then it's going to i) become unacceptable to have a bike that does 25mpg when your 5 person 1.5 tonne car will manage 70 and ii) possibly even unaffordable.

We'll be there with a wry smile and able to say... we were there at the start and saw this coming. Even if it ISN'T diesel that powers bikes of the future.

Me, irrespective of what I'm riding to work, I'll still be turning up at the Bat & Ball on my badly engineered old Enfield

[Stuart]

Yeah, you do have to walk a fine line in this line of work Sometimes it's easier not to write up a bike seriously just to avoid the heat. Truth is I like any diesel bike because I love the torque. And the MPG figures. And the sense of being in a small, biking community away from the mainstream. I'll savour it while it lasts I think

Stuart