Future of BMW Diesels

[oilburner]

The folks at Raptors and Rockets website asked BMW and Jürgen Stoffregen about diesel engines and motorcycles. This was the question and response:

TS: What about diesel engines and bio fuels for the future in motorcycles? Are you doing any serious research into this? I think you have the know how from the cars, so why not in a motorcycle?

JS: "High performance diesel engines (like modern engines in cars) in a motorcycle make no sense. They would need a capsule against the noise, this would rise weight. They would need a special and heavier gearbox because of the high torque and the low engine speed. I would guess that a wet clutch is not possible because of torque and the soot which gets into the oil. High combustion pressure would cause stronger engine construction with more weight. It would be difficult (or even imposssible) to find enough space for the turbocharger and for the intercooler.

But all know how from the car side concerning fuel consumption will have influence on future motorcycle engine concepts."

The above info appears in an article on 2007 BMWs at the following link:
http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/News/2007_BMW.htm

+++

Not encouraging news for diesel Beemerphiles. Actually, the response doesn't directly answer yes or no to the question asked:
"What about diesel engines and bio fuels for the future in motorcycles?"
I agree with the comment about noise, but I'm not sure I agree with the comment about no room for a turbocharger and intercooler. Also, the comment about using a wet clutch: perhaps Mr. Stoffregen forgot that all BMW motorcycles used automotive style gearboxes and dry clutches from 1923 to 1998, and still use them on the oilhead boxers and the K1200LT. However, as one who has followed the BMW story for many years, I fully expect (comments elsewhere) that BMW has at least one diesel prototype.

I guess it's time for an extra push to finish my (mostly) BMW diesel bike to show 'em how it's done.

FYI


Avery

[andrewaust]

Hi Avery


Yeah I agree with you! It seems like he was talking himself out of it as he was writing the email reply back.

Noise could be a problem, but listening to electronic controlled common rail diesels in cars (with the bonnet up), they seem fairly good in regard to noise.

Some petrol bike engines are still not all that quite in relation to engine noise, especially the remaining air cooled engines. Most of the liquid cooled ones are quiet - although some transmissions are still noisy, I know the XVS650 I had was a pain in the butt in top gear.

I think the gearbox and clutch issues are a little bit hard to accept, feeling something could be addressed there, maybe a dry clutch to transmission, or maybe if the transmission and clutch was manufactured similar to a 2 stroke where the clutch and gearbox use the same lubricant and the engine has its own - most probable a dry sump system using either the frame or oil tank for its oil supply.

Can't see why the turbo and intercooler would be a problem either, seems as if little though has gone into it to me.

We are seeing 3cyl diesel bikes getting built, so why not a company like BMW or another reputable M/C company taking it on.

Sad to see the large manufacturers still disinterested in diesel bikes hay!





Cheers

Andrew

[endlos]

so bmw isnt interested, they will once its proven the rest of the world is, they are a huge company that does everything it can to keep people locked into expensive fuels, unless he wants to get fired, hes not going to say anything else. its up to the small people to change it, and then the big companies to do it better and f%$k everyone else, thats how it works. hahahah

[andrewaust]

I've read an interesting article marked "Confidential" from General Motors Holden here in OZ.

It has a time scale of motor vehicles and to what type of engine/power train combinations they will have in the future.

Now I'll probably be cruising around with a walking frame in 2050, but looking at the scale the petrol engine seems doomed around "2020" and the diesel engine is going to take a much bigger role, especially as electric - hybrid designs. Fuel cell cars will be the most popular in 2050 according to the document, followed by Hydrogen, Diesel Hybrid, then Diesel, and at the bottom the humble petrol engine.

What has this have to do with our M/C industry! If our motorcycle manufacturers continue to sit on there butts and stick to one fuel type, they will soon find out the automotive industry will lead in new combustion engine technology's and also find country's will start to crack down on petrol combustion engines more and more with emissions.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the years to come. Due to emission laws, most engines will be intercooled turbo charged and have common rail direct injection - this will include both Petrol and Diesel engines.

So come on those big M/C manufacturers, time to think of alternate fuel bikes

Only if I could see into the future

PS: I think GM and other manufactures want to keep this sort of stuff under raps at the moment to keep selling current vehicles, but their must be a day when things will have to change.


Cheers


Andrew

[endlos]

http://waterpoweredcar.com/

going there and reading all the links was somewhat enlightening.

[oilburner]

What bugs me is the fuel mileage of today's vehicles - 2 or more wheels.. While renovating my 100 year old house, I found a 1932 newspaper with an article about two American cars that averaged over 30 miles per imperial gallon on a trip across Canada. Folks, that's over 70 years ago. Given the advances in technology in the intervening years, I refuse to believe engineers haven't been able to figure out how to al least double fuel mileage. I too have visited the sites and links mentioned by "endlos" in the previous post - there is overwhelming evidence that there are more than a few solutions to the mileage problem and that alternative fuel systems such as a hydrogen on demand system is not as complicated as the "experts" would have us believe. IMHO "other" forces are at work here.
FWIW

[endlos]

there are no other forces at play. people with money pay people with less money to protect their money by violating anyone who threatens to take money away from them. thats life. anyone who thinks differently is not in touch with this reality.

[andrewaust]

From first hand experience = Don't mess with the old companies, or anyone who has interests in this area.

Water, Hydrogen, fuel cell, even zero point energy technologies etc can be adapted for use in motor transport - 2, 4, 22 wheelers etc.

Now here's the interesting thing! Reports keep coming to hand that due to World economies going great guns, oil is soon to reach peak supply. So will we see more alternate energy vehicles being introduced. It will be interesting to see.

Many technologies are still experimented secretly by back yard tinkerers like the GEET system, G-cell, etc - even magnetic motors started out at a small scale, but all technologies are suppressed from the public = and yes it is frustrating

Only time will tell I guess



Cheers


Andrew

[wahiba]

I remember the stories of the water powered car 50 years ago. Then it was pill added to the water. Of course the oil companies bought the rights etc. and that was the end of that.

The bit that seems to be forgotten is the energy required to produce hydrogen and oxygen from water. To make sense the energy in the hydrogen must be greater than the energy used to create it from water.

Easy enough to work out.

Remember energy is neither created or destroyed, it is just moved around and sometimes in the process useful work is done.

[Cockney Bob]

I have magazines from the 1950s with claims of ordinary petrol bikes AJS BSA etc doing more than 200 miles on one gallon of petrol.
With all the technology and better standards of manufacture why do they now struggle to do 40 miles to the gallon. My Diesel royal Enfield can do 200 miles on one gallon of vegetable oil but I had to fit a third world Cement mixer engine in an old frame to get this.
Bob F

[oldbmw]

I have magazines from the 1950s with claims of ordinary petrol bikes AJS BSA etc doing more than 200 miles on one gallon of petrol.
With all the technology and better standards of manufacture why do they now struggle to do 40 miles to the gallon. My Diesel royal Enfield can do 200 miles on one gallon of vegetable oil but I had to fit a third world Cement mixer engine in an old frame to get this.
Bob F

In the early sixties I played around with some Triumphs. I could get 138mpg out od a Tiger cub ( cruising at about 45-50) and 100mpg from a 500 twin cruising at about 60mph. This was quite simple to do. I did have the advantage of good fuel, but no electronics.