Diesel Knock

Getting the pumbing right for your Diesel fuel feed..

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Diesel Dave
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Diesel Knock

Post by Diesel Dave »

Chris,

Having a think about your loud 'knock' issue.

I've done a bit of digging into the fuel factor and can offer the following.

Excessive diesel knock can be attributable to poor fuel quality, diesel fuel has a 'cetane' rating associated with grade (not the same as octane for a petrol engine); in the UK regular pump diesel has a cetane rating of 51 and this is quite high, we can also get 55 cetane grade fuel at a premium price.

The cetane rating is the delay in ignition after injection, the higher the value the quicker it ignites, your motor is rated at about 20:1 compression so you should get a very rapid burn compared to say a Lombardini that manages only 18:1, the higher the compression the more effecient the motor. In a low cetane fuel there is a longer delay before the fuel ignites but then a much faster burn rate once it has started.

If you were to obtain a higher cetane fuel this should allow you to retard the ignition timing slightly and thus reduce the diesel knock you are suffering.

One of the cost cutting elements of the small stationary diesel motors is the fixed timing, in automotive motors there is an additional element to the injection pump that advances and retards the injection timing relative to the rpm of the motor. This is not an easy fix for us experimenters as the timing is controlled by spacers under the injection pump, less spacers = more advance. In order to effect variable timing you need either to have control over the pump height or better have an advance mechanism for the pump operating cam lobe. In the Cushman scooter world there is a big maket in aftermarket fitting of Briggs & Stratton V twin petrol engines, one of their 'hop up' tuning tips is to fit a stepped drive key to advance the spark. In general terms the more advance you can run before detonation kicks in the more power you can make, conversly the more retatard you can run at lower rpm the more torque you will get. (up to a limit).

LPG fumigation works because you are introducing a secondary fuel that burns at a different rate so not all your fuel is burned in one 'hit', later stationary engines such as the Lombardini 15LD series and the later Hatz models have dual stage injection, this spreads the burn over a longer period and again reduces knock.

I'm not sure if you can upgrade to dual stage injection by swapping injectors only, these work by 'breaking' at a lower pressure for the primary injection followed by a full inject at a higher break pressure slightly after, you may need to match pump and injector as a new set. I've certainly noted that the newer Hatz and Lombardini engines have considerably less knock at idle - Stuart has commented on this before when comparing his earlier Hatz IB30 to the later IB40 motors.

One other factor is your motor has an alloy barrel with a cast iron liner, older motors have a complete cast iron barrel and these are known to be quieter. Not much you can do about this short of knocking up a soundproof casing for the entire engine - not impossible given that you have retained the fan cooling.

So - try a better fuel if you can get your hands on it and muck about with the timing again; the only downside would be fuel availability on a longer ride.

As an aside do you know that diesel fuel is 18% heavier than petrol? fill up an Enfield tank with 14 litres and it will weigh 4lb more than if it were petrol. Up this to one of the aftermarket tanks of 18 or 21 litres and you are looking at carting around an extra 11 or whopping 18lb extra!

In aviation fuel this is critical as the energy content is more or less directly linked to the weight; imagine tanking up your 747 in St Lucia and your tanks may be full but the total weight will be less than if you had refuelled in Iceland; and your range suffers as a consequence. As my grandpapy used to say - fuel up in the mornin' and you get more bang for your buck; I think this was because the old pumps used to store a head of fuel in a glass container at the top, once the sun hits this expect it to expand rapidly. I for one have filled up only to have the fuel expand as the hot engine underneath goes to work. :?
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Damping down the knock

Post by Stuart »

When I first got my RE Hatz I looked at ways of reducing the noise/knock and ended up fitting lead sheet inside the fibreglass panels that sat either side of the cylinder. It was sticky back stuff sold exclusively through Diesel Car magazine and was meant to be stuck under the bonnet's (hood's) of cars.
But the bike seemed to get quieter with age and as so many people wanted to view the engine I discarded the panels in the end. But it don't 'alf knock in the winter time.
I guess if I had access to some of those chemicals Andrew talked about I might be tempted to put some in the tank for the winter months :)

That's one thing about this KLR Army diesel that struck me at the time, how quiet it was with its water jacket.
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balboa_71
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engine knock

Post by balboa_71 »

Dave, Stuart;
I've riden my clone engined bike enough to get used to the knocking. My biggest concern was the engine blowing up, which it hasn't done yet :wink:
To sum up what I've done to reduce knock:

Add very small amouts of acetone to fuel, results, no difference.

Vary shim thinkness underneath injector pump, results, yes, it made a difference, but performance suffered, leading me to believe factory had pump set correctly.

Fumigate with propane, results, none, but my methods were piss poor, so I will try again another time.

Next, I will run biodiesel in bike and see what a difference that makes. We (north Texans) have no control over centane values of the fuel we burn. We Americans do not have the advanced diesel fuel network enjoyed in the UK and Europe, so we are stuck with what's at the pump. Others may disagree, but here in my town, that's how it is.

Later on, I will replace my clone engine with a Hatz 1B40 or 50, and that will solve some of these issues 8)

Thanks for the advice!!! BTW, the knocking noise attracts attention and that may save my life from someone changing lanes and running into me.....
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville
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Knocking about

Post by Stuart »

People say to me how can you ride a bike that sounds like that? Doesn't it annoy you? To tell you the truth it's never bothered me as a rider at all and I've done a few miles. My only concern was that the neighbours would complain :(
A bike with a sound that will really tire you out though is not a diesel but a big two stroke trail or motocross machine. The 'Rang tang tang' sound really gets to you after a while and makes you go all :shock: lol
The KTM 495 springs to mind.

Stuart
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Post by Darren »

First post here although I recently introduced myself on the yahoo group list.

To decrease diesel knock you need to reduce the amount of fuel in the cylinder before combustion occurs. thus reducing the high peak pressure made by the large amount of fuel burning quickly which is the knock.
To do this you need to
improve the fuel cetane (cetane improver aka diesel treatment)
improve the injection quality. Old or poor quality injectors can inject the fuel as more of a squirt than a spray/mist and/or in the wrong direction. They can also leak slightly before making their break pressure that will mess with combustion.

As Dave mentioned two stage injectors are good as they introduce a small amount of fuel that begins to combust so that when the main fuel charge is introduced the ignition delay is reduced as is it is being squirted into an enviroment where there is already some combustion.

On the subject of two stage injectors i noticed in the Hatz parts manuals (available on the hatz site) that the low emission IB30 use the same injectors as th IB40. Are these two stage injectors? From what I remember from a quick scan of the parts manual a few weeks back it appeard that the other low emissions modifications are a timing alteration (some kind of shim for the IP? this would make sense as engines are often retarded to reduce NOx emissions) and something else?

The other thing that might be of use to improve combustion when cold (and is an option on the Hatz) is some kind of inlet air heater - although it would require a fair amount of power and I would guess most of these engines would not put out enough power to allow such a heater to be used for long and the battery kept in charge.

Anyway enough rambling,

Thanks for the forum
Enfield Bullet with Hatz IB30
See my sites for veg oil fuel info
www.vegburner.co.uk
www.wiki.obed.org.uk - Open Biofuel Engine Development wiki
Erik "EVA Products

No dieselknock overhere

Post by Erik "EVA Products »

My first post after the "stuart" invitation;-))

I hope this forum will be one to bring knowledge and fun to all who care !
May the force of diesel be with you.

About the Knock you call it, it's a long time ago i heard one.
in my bikes there is no knock because of the spread injection into 2 or 3 stages during 1 work cycle. The amount per injection can be changed by the ECU that triggers the CDI so a louder or lower noise can be produced. The lower the noise the better the combustion is "spread".

Also the watercooling effect makes the engines run silently.
this water cooling system is also needed to give low noise and pollutants
for EU motorcycle homologation.

So my idea is when you want to get of the "knock" put on an CDI injection system. its not that hard to do. you 'll get a better mileage to speak in English terms. (we never drive 1 mile here, it's allways 1 or 1000 km ;-)))

If you like the knock , than stay off the system . because trying to make it less can brake the engine when you make the wrong adjustments.

I hope you guys understand my english, i am only Dutch !!
Image

regards

Erik, The Netherlands T-800CDI
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Post by andrewaust »

The single cylinder all aluminium air cooled Diesels are hard to quieten, although my Yanmar clone has quietened really well as it runs itself in.

I've also used a little Acetone and wound the fuel rack stop in a little to lean the fuel under full load = one thing that kills a diesel is soot/carbon so that was a must do.

Retarding the timing is another good one if your confident with diesels, as it's a good idea to check spill timing from the injector pump.

I don't think electronic injection would be feasable for singles (cost effective), but is great for multi cylinder engines - something all diesels will have in the future anyway. I've noticed even marine diesel gen sets using multi cylinder diesels are going full electronic.

LPG totally stops the knock also, but one would find it hard to set up gas injection on a single - space and weight are the biggest concerns.

Suppose it's all fun to tinker = I know neighbours etc can give you angry looks, while others look in amazement wondering what the heck it is ..... lol :lol:

I'm kinda happy with the slight knock the bike has, but would probably try to lessen the noise if it was any louder then it is.




Cheers


Andrew
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balboa_71
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injector adjustment

Post by balboa_71 »

Andrew,
I've tried the acetone in my clone (that even rhymes) :lol: , but no luck to quieten it. I've jacked up the injector, but didn't like the results. Spill timing in my starts around 30° BTDC, and finishes around 20°. I'd like to know more about the threaded adjustment screw (with spring plunger) in regards to leaning out the fuel as you mentioned in your post....I'm assuming that's what you mean by "fuel rack stop".
My engines noise is amplified by the Comet drive unit....acting like a 6" steel bell that someone is beating on with a hammer. Other than that, people just turn to stare when I pass them, most smile (children and women smile, men seem to react with puzzlement :roll: ). At idle and while on the center stand, my bikes front wheel bounces up and down and the center stand grinds into the concrete quite nicely 8)

Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville
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Comet 'Bell' & LPG fumigation

Post by Diesel Dave »

Chris,

To quieten the comet try coating with a rubber based thick roofing type mastic on the outer. Or stick on some absorbant material to deaden the sound.

Same goes for the fan housing but you should be able to do this on the inside.

You used to be able to buy a plastic dipping product for hammer handles etc. but I havn't seen this for a few years.

LPG fumigation should be easy to do if you can find a small enough tank, I've used disposable cartridges with a size 30 jet to restrict the flow with some success. If you drill a small hole into the air filter housing and bond in a feeder pipe.

To do this properly (Safely) you should include a cutout solenoid so that gas cannot flow without the motor running - also you should not start the flow until the motor is warmed up fully. (ask me how I know!) :oops:

Regards
Dave
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balboa_71
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Comet coating

Post by balboa_71 »

Dave,
I know what you are talking about with the urethane coating for the Comet....really good idea, thanks :wink:

I'm replacing my engine anyways to a Hatz, so the knock is just fine (for now).

I'll bet filling up the air cleaner and manifold with propane before starting was a blast :shock: Reminds me of some stories I've heard about nitrious injection on autos leaking into engine before starting.

Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville
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LPG Risks

Post by Diesel Dave »

Hmm LPG is a bit flamable.....

I still have all my eyebrows, as i was kick starting at the time.

Pubic hair on the other hand..................


I'll be quiet for a bit now :oops:

Dave
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Post by andrewaust »

Hi guy's


OUCH! :oops: Yeah your spot on regarding LPG injection - the closer to the inlet port the better and always run some kind of solenoid to shut it off and turn it on when needed. Always start off on the real lean side so there is no chance of filling the air-box with explosive gases - remember to much gas and your likely to knock the skirt off the piston too. :shock:

The stud I was talking about is the rack stop bolt - the Yanmar and the clone Yanmar's have a pin on the end of the stud too, and found locking the pin helped as I was chasing the throttle all the time due to the preload on the pin - GGGGGGRRRRR! so now it is locked and adjusted so there is just a little smoke on acceleration it seems to be running great :wink:

That's a bummer the Acetone didn't help mate! Sounds like the timing is a little to far advanced "maybe" I did notice my engine getting quieter as the K's rolled on, now having around 1500 K's on it. Your spot on with the comet clutch resonating the knock - I always wondered if rubber mounting the engine with a belt drive would help.




Cheers


Andrew
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Post by moose60 »

Hello All,
On the subject of combustion knock, I find that my Datsun pickup with the SD22 motor runs noticeably quieter when run on biodiesel. This is an IDI motor, so it might not apply to the DI engine types. Give the biodiesel a shot if it's available near you.

I've started looking around and it seems like small diesels are sort of hard to find in the US. There seems to be lots more available in Canada.
Byron
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Post by andrewaust »

Hi Moose60



Hay an SD22! They’re great engines. I have a Nissan Patrol with the SD33T Engine, had my vehicle for 16 years and it's still going strong.

Yeah the SD series engines are indirect injection and run a lot quieter than the direct injection engines, although they say our engines use more fuel than a direct injected diesel. Won't even go there, as my ole thing is good on fuel for the weight it lugs around, with 21.1 compression plus a hair dryer punching another 6 pound of air in, it does really well.

I've noticed Yanmar have put out a new engine and guess what? It's an indirect injected engine, with word that it runs quieter, so hang on guy's, we might see more improvements in small diesels in the next few years.

With Electronic injection etc etc, improvements will have to be made. The only problem with indirect injection - it needs a glow plug to get things going when cold GGGGGRRRRRR. I kinda like the idea of one kick and it goes, without the hassle of battery power to glow an engine.

Wouldn't mind sitting one of those V-twins in the R.E ............ :D

Now all I ask for is 20hp - and that will make one very happy!


Bye for now - happy riding
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Post by oldbmw »

Try adding 10% veggie oil to pump diesel. Here in France it is done at the factory and I have noticed this effect. Idle and slow speed running is much quieter than when loaded with UK fuel . it smokes more at high revs, but pulls better at slow revs. I 'think' the burning process is slowed a little.
any way pop in a liter of pure sunflower oil into about 10 litres of pump diesel. Please let me know if this helps.
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balboa_71
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veggy oil

Post by balboa_71 »

Hey,
You don't sound like your from France, where do you hail from?


Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville
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Post by oldbmw »

Originally from the UK ( Cornwall), now living in west France. I grew up in the sixties on old Brit bikes, mostly ( exclusively on road almost) on triumphs. Currently riding a 1985 BMW R80RT, is good enough bike, but I dont like the RH brake/LH gearchange. So guess which way I'm heading :)
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LH gearchange

Post by balboa_71 »

Oldbmw,
I'm like you, prefer RH gearchange, but all that is gone. The Enfields imported to the U.S. from India have LH gearchange and it is terrible (if not worse). One has rebush all the pivot point with real bushings to get it to work
without sticking.

Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville
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Enfields - 5 speeders with RH shift

Post by Diesel Dave »

Chris,

It's quite easy to convert Enfields to RH shift - look on the casing and you will see a boss where the designer intended the shift to exit from.

You will find the rear brake action much improved with the LH lever too.

Just like this:
Image

You can order the parts as a kit from Hitchcocks in the UK but this is a bit pricey for such a simple job.

Regards
Dave
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shifter

Post by balboa_71 »

Dave,
Wish I could get my old Enfield back to have a look :cry: but what is gone, is gone forever.... :(

Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville
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Re: No dieselknock overhere

Post by bean juice »

[quote="Erik "EVA Products"]My first post after the "stuart" invitation;-))


So my idea is when you want to get of the "knock" put on an CDI injection system. its not that hard to do. you 'll get a better mileage to speak in English terms. (we never drive 1 mile here, it's allways 1 or 1000 km ;-)))
I hope you guys understand my english, i am only Dutch !!
Image

regards

Erik, The Netherlands T-800CDI[/quote]

Hi Erik, what CDI systems are available? I'm working on a project currently using a Punsun motor and hope to build a bike around a Smart engine very soon. In preparation for the Smart project I have been looking for CDI systems that could be adapted to the smart motor but so far haven't found all that much outside the Delphi and Bosch systems.

Peter-
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