Yanclone engine noises

[andrewaust]

The Surplus Center has the little 13.7 Caterpillar engines in stock again - 34 of them to be precise, for $699.99. From somewhere deep in the recesses of mind is the belief that this engine is built by Perkins. Can anyone confirm that?

Ron

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Item.asp? ... em=28-1726

Wow Ron! What a great looking little engine, that price is incredible, if that is quality controlled and produced by Cat you would grab a few of these.

I cannot help you out regarding if they are made by Perkins, but look similar to a Perkins I seen somewhere.


A

[Diesel Dave]

Flat's 'peened' onto the balls surface - that's quite telling.

A peened injury would usually be caused by an impact rather than some sort of rubbing event caused by lack of lube.

This points to it being installed with a hammer and tube but may have been hit anywhere other than the centre race. I really doubt this has been caused by overspeed as these are usually easy to spot with heated/blued cages and it would have affected all of the balls.

C3 designation is quite a loose tollerance.

Of course the damage could have occurred prior to installation either during manufacture or transportation/storeage.....

I'd agree with you and install a good quality bearing an run the motor for the next 250k no bother.

BTW is this bearing running at engine speed or half engine speed?

Dave

[Diesel Dave]

I've just looked up the speed capabilities of 6308 bearings.

Grease = 7,800
Oil = 9,200

So there's no way your stressing this bearing at 4000 rpm.

I'm glad my Lombardini lumps have plain shell bearings, so much easier to fit & replace but more likely to require crank regrinding.

Dave

[andrewaust]

Funny you should mention that Dave . When the engine arrived via TNT the main output shaft was protruding out of the carton and the book etc was totalled, so was the bearing slightly damaged from new to become more of a problem at a later date. I know I've never hammered the crank, which would have to take a darn big blow for such a large sturdy looking bearing.

Bearing is running at engine speed, it's the bearing that supports the flywheel side of the crank.

Yes spot on mate, C3 is a looser tolerance, although this bearing has little play for a C3.

Certainly good points raised Dave, something to really consider


A

[andrewaust]

I've just looked up the speed capabilities of 6308 bearings.

Grease = 7,800
Oil = 9,200

So there's no way your stressing this bearing at 4000 rpm.

I'm glad my Lombardini lumps have plain shell bearings, so much easier to fit & replace but more likely to require crank regrinding.

Dave

Yeah bugger mate, my tinytach only shows max rpm at 4160 "or close to it", so yes nowhere near the speed for bearing failure. I'd say this rpm was only achieved very briefly too, I didn't let the engine go past the nominated 3800rpm, probably raised the rpm overtaking someone going downhill .............. lol. Yes I have done just that, cannot get past on the incline or flat, just wait for a really long downhill run !!


A

[Diesel Dave]

I know of a story from the Ford factory at Dagenham in the UK.

In the 1930's they had started making V8's for the Ford Pilot, and this was one of the first engines to have the new type 'glacier' shell bearings.

Each conrod was carefully measured, fitted witha bearing and torqued up accurately and THEN the caps would be struck with identifier numbers so they couldn't be assembled incorrectly.

Of course smacking the bearing cap with a 4lb hammer and a number stamp did not have a positive effect in the extremely accurately machined bearing and would subsequently fail very quickly.

What surprised me was the factory had to call in an inspector from the bearing manufacturer to discover the source of the problem!

Dave

[andrewaust]

I know of a story from the Ford factory at Dagenham in the UK.

In the 1930's they had started making V8's for the Ford Pilot, and this was one of the first engines to have the new type 'glacier' shell bearings.

Each conrod was carefully measured, fitted witha bearing and torqued up accurately and THEN the caps would be struck with identifier numbers so they couldn't be assembled incorrectly.

Of course smacking the bearing cap with a 4lb hammer and a number stamp did not have a positive effect in the extremely accurately machined bearing and would subsequently fail very quickly.

What surprised me was the factory had to call in an inspector from the bearing manufacturer to discover the source of the problem!

Dave

It really makes you wonder where peoples brains are sometimes Dave? Just think of how much time and effort would have gone into the preparation and the huge setup to manufacturer the engines, then to have some brain storm devise such a devastating technique to mark the bearings, wouldn't you thing they would arrange something prior to fitting such as engraving or etching.

Sometimes you really kinda scratch your head and wonder if any thought goes into it at times.



A

[balboa_71]

Andrewaust,
Thanks for clearing up the bearing question. Ball bearings need little lubrication, but balls with flat spots was probably a defective issue, and not caused by something you did. I'm guessing by "high speed" for $68, they are selling bearings to run at higher speeds than you'd find in a 50/60hz three phase motor (1,725 rpm, approx). I'd go for the high speed bearing over the standard.
I'd figure the pto bearing to go south before the one you are having trouble with because it does need a lot of good clean oil to survive.

Thanks,
Cris

[balboa_71]

Ron,
That's a cute little engine for sale at the Surplus center. I didn't know that place existed. If Perkins still makes quality engines, then that would be as good a choice as the small Kubotas. Parts maybe another issue, don't know.

Cris

[andrewaust]

I've had some time on my hands this afternoon, so out came the tools, torque wrench etc, putting the engine back together again after a good cleaning, lube and thorough going over.

Kicked the engine over and bingo, no more noises except our knock, so there we have it, the yanclone engine No 01 is all back together with a full bill of health !!.

The bore still had hone marks, no scoring and from what I can see of the piston skirt, it's showing no scoring either, I'm also impressed on the good thick cast iron sleeve which has been placed in the engine.

balboa_71
Thanks for clearing up the bearing question. Ball bearings need little lubrication, but balls with flat spots was probably a defective issue, and not caused by something you did. I'm guessing by "high speed" for $68, they are selling bearings to run at higher speeds than you'd find in a 50/60hz three phase motor (1,725 rpm, approx). I'd go for the high speed bearing over the standard.
I'd figure the pto bearing to go south before the one you are having trouble with because it does need a lot of good clean oil to survive.

Thanks,
Cris

Yes Chris, these high speed bearings can stand speeds of 11,000 rpm, so there is a huge margin between 4000 rpm and the design limits of the bearing. I agree, the bearing I have placed in place of the standard bearing will see the life of the engine out. Your also right regarding lubrication, 2-stroke engines mostly always use ball cartridge roller bearing races in the crankcase, they get very little lube, just a misting of oil from the fuel charge, although it is enough to keep them spinning .

So there we have it, these engines can be rebuilt very easily.

I'm suspicious that the bearing received a good shunt on transit to my residence. This wouldn't be the first time items have arrived with damage or completely stuffed from bad handling.



A

[Diesel Dave]

Well done Andrew - a job well done!

Dave

[arnaud]

Hi, This is the first time ive heard of a malfuntion of a china single..
When a connecting rod of a ruggerini engine breaks or a hatzhas bearing or fuel pump trouble, it is bad luck, when something happens to a china engine it is all bad crap?

Okay i'm overreacting here a little. but this is often how it goes.
I've some experience with chinese(as well as russian) motorcycles and know how quality can differ..
After running he first few 1000's of km. there was little debris(no metal) in the oil filter. Since then it stays clean.
especially on the summer holidays the engine gets very heavy work to do. climbing mountains when i have to shift back, but won't because the hill is almost at the top or someone is driving very close behind me..having trouble to get us at the same speed..
Even if you have to add a few bearings for 30-60 euros, the're still a hoot!
At the german ebay ( ebay.de)there are several companies who offer these engines and ship the worldwide.. maybe an solution for the americans?

[balboa_71]

Guys,
I think the china diesels are a good deal and good value. Mine is still running after 3 years, even though it sounds like hell is breaking loosing inside it's cases. What I want to do now is look into one of their "v" twins and figure how to shoe horn it into my bikes frame. Maybe with the extra horsepower, there will be much less rattle??? My old Changfa 22 hp single knocked so bad, you could hear it 2 city blocks away when I was running it. It was built of cast iron and water cooled. Never could figure out how to build 2 wheels onto it so I could drive it around the block

Cris

[BoxerOtto]

hey andrew, another way of getting flat spots on bearings that i have seen in two strokes is people actually over mixing their fuel oil ratio thinking they are protecting the engine when in actual fact the extra oil makes the ball or needle bearing 'skate' or 'slide' and the higher the rpm and thicker the oil the more of a problem it can be. 4000 rpm you wouldn't think would be to fast. What type and weight of oil are you using? One other question is the maximum rpm of the new bearing is almost double as in strait shaft 'electric' motor application, but how about radial thrust load from reciprocating mass? does the manufacturer give specs for other forces. i hope this releativly inexpensive fix works, i'm sure it will. i have only bench run mine for a few hours, but i was told these engines were pre run for up to 1 hr at the factory before shipping. i disassembled mine when i first got it , only to find some very thick greasy oil of unknown origin inside with bits of paper towel like substance on the suction screen.further findings revealed the valve adjustment was loose , the pump and tappet lifters were indeed run for some period of time because they were not rotating and had started to make grooves across the face. bearing journals were fine and a quick lapp of the lifters solved the rotational problems.i suppose the mag ball bearing could go through the same fate as yours further down the road, but i think i will run it as you did and just keep an eye on things. i to am planning a turbo install. keep us posted please!!!

cheers Otto.

[andrewaust]

hey andrew, another way of getting flat spots on bearings that i have seen in two strokes is people actually over mixing their fuel oil ratio thinking they are protecting the engine when in actual fact the extra oil makes the ball or needle bearing 'skate' or 'slide' and the higher the rpm and thicker the oil the more of a problem it can be. 4000 rpm you wouldn't think would be to fast. What type and weight of oil are you using? One other question is the maximum rpm of the new bearing is almost double as in strait shaft 'electric' motor application, but how about radial thrust load from reciprocating mass? does the manufacturer give specs for other forces. i hope this releativly inexpensive fix works, i'm sure it will. i have only bench run mine for a few hours, but i was told these engines were pre run for up to 1 hr at the factory before shipping. i disassembled mine when i first got it , only to find some very thick greasy oil of unknown origin inside with bits of paper towel like substance on the suction screen.further findings revealed the valve adjustment was loose , the pump and tappet lifters were indeed run for some period of time because they were not rotating and had started to make grooves across the face. bearing journals were fine and a quick lapp of the lifters solved the rotational problems.i suppose the mag ball bearing could go through the same fate as yours further down the road, but i think i will run it as you did and just keep an eye on things. i to am planning a turbo install. keep us posted please!!!

cheers Otto.

Good observation on the bearings in two strokes, I've not seen flat balls but I did manage to flatten every single roller in the conrod bearing of a KX 250, turned the connecting rod a nice shade of blue too . Could have killed the guy controlling the gates at the time, but hey that was/is racing = and another story.

Run your engine like you said, take not of what it sounds like - as stated this bearing could have gone for a short time or for ages as no hard facing was lifting.

I couldn't find any info on radial thrust, but C3 bearings are the preferred ones in engine cranks if you need to use this type of bearing.

The oil I use is Valvaline XLD 20W - 50 which is turbo diesel approved. Many of you guy's in the UK/US etc will think its toooooo thick, I agree for your climate, here in Australia it gets bloody hot and this oil has been brilliant, I use it in all vehicles for years without problems. I also noticed the oil sticks to everything in the engine, was even evident in the bore, sticking to it like s**t sticks to a blanket !!

Oil changes are/were done at 1hr, 100 klm, 1000 klm and thereafter at intervals of 2000 klm. The oil isn't cheap, but neither is getting a bike transported back to home and is good security.

Anyone who has just purchased one of these engines. before you put the engine into a bike, run it for an hour with fresh oil and then drain the oil, pull the oil filter out and clean it, you'll be amazed at how much crude you might find.

Looks like you thoroughly went over your engine boxerotto, great stuff. You shouldn't have any troubles, just keep bearing noise in mind. The other thing is to turn the fuelling down till only a small amount of smoke is emitted, these engines are over-fuelled at factory setting.


A

[arnaud]

I was told it is important not to buy the very cheapest- which in many cases have no balancing gear and are of considereble less quality.
I use the cheapest oil around (6,50 for 5 liters) and change around 3000-4000km.
As i stated above, from new the sump had to be clean. It already had a test run in the factory and the oil was drained out.

[Diesel Dave]

I think you might be on the wrong track with over-oiling ball/roller bearings.....

After all Z1000's (and Honda supercubs) have roller/ball bearing crankshafts and they are sitting in the sump oil, same goes for gearboxes.

The 2 stoke oiling problems associated with too much oil in the mix are usually caused by leaning out the petrol ratio, doubling the oil dose for a 2% tuned bike will lean the fuel mix out considerably. Then it runs hot/seizes/holes pistons and you will get bearing damage as a result.

I have seen an article on roller bearing skidding somewhere, must dig it out.

Dave

[BoxerOtto]

correct on the extra heat and severe damage. please if you could find the article it would be great to read. i will try and find information from our saw tech schools that seemed to show that too much oil can cause skating, because you can still adjust jetting for more fuel and cool down combustion temps.which brings in even more oil. i'm not suggesting that this is what happened to andrews bearing,only sharing bearing failure experiences.and really who knows how the bearing in question made it to be in his engine, maybe they played a game of floor hockey with it first.