Reg rec - output amps?

[Anorak_ian]

I'm using a GSXR 600 reg rec (old version), anyhow I'm wondering about the charging and the lighting output amps.

If anyone knows, or has a ballpark figure please let me know.

These reg recs are rated at 5000rpm, as my engine will only be revving at a max of 3700rpm ish, do you think the amps would be a lot lower than at 5000rpm? Just a thought.

Also, as you may know, I have had a real run of bad luck with reg recs and batteries. I'm pretty damn sure that it was all down to the starter motor needing more juice than the small battery could give, the 8ah battery going pop (4 times) and the reg rec going the same way. This has left me with a couple of reg recs that have the charging circuit dead but still work with the lighting circuit.
Here’s the thought, as the bike does not have spark plugs and coils, it doesn't need such a charging current anyway, so charging the battery with the lower lighting current may be ok, even beneficial for a small 8ah battery. And running the lights directly from the battery. What do you think?

I'm now kick starting the bike so the starter is now out of the equation.

[alexanderfoti]

The stator will be wound to give as much voltage at low rpm as possible.

With the stator, more winds per bobbin then more voltage at lower rpm . Thicker wire, more current producing capacity.

You should be fine with the reg . Using the lighting coil probably won't provide enough current to run everything and charge the battery.

[Anorak_ian]

The stator will be wound to give as much voltage at low rpm as possible.

Doh, of course, that's me not thinking.

[alexanderfoti]

[tappy]

The stator will be wound to give a reasonable output for the engine rpm range. As was stated - more windings = more voltage & thicker wire = more current.
At a maximum of 3700 rpm the alternator will never be kicking out a huge amount of current so it will take some time to re-charge the battery following large current draws. Fitting a battery with more capacity will help smooth out the demand.
It's the alternator that's rated that's rated at rpm, not the reg-rec - the reg rec should work just as well at low frequencies (low rpms) as it will at high frequencies.
You mention running the lights "off the lighting coil". I'm not aware of any of the GSXR600s had a "lighting coil" - that's something that older bikes and trail bikes used to do years ago. The gsxr 600 has a 3 phase alternator, and needs all 3 phases using equally to work properly, efficiently, and avoid reg/recs going pop.

[Anorak_ian]

The stator will be wound to give a reasonable output for the engine rpm range. As was stated - more windings = more voltage & thicker wire = more current.
At a maximum of 3700 rpm the alternator will never be kicking out a huge amount of current so it will take some time to re-charge the battery following large current draws. Fitting a battery with more capacity will help smooth out the demand.
It's the alternator that's rated that's rated at rpm, not the reg-rec - the reg rec should work just as well at low frequencies (low rpms) as it will at high frequencies.

Yes I know, that's why I said "Doh!" it was one of those questions asked at the sper of the moment without thinking and with the aid of wine. I tried to think of every possible question to save some time, not a good idea to think on the spot and ask a few questions at once, as the actual question you want answering goes un answered in favor of the other questions you shouldn't have asked in the first place. Oh!

You mention running the lights "off the lighting coil". I'm not aware of any of the GSXR600s had a "lighting coil" - that's something that older bikes and trail bikes used to do years ago. The gsxr 600 has a 3 phase alternator, and needs all 3 phases using equally to work properly, efficiently, and avoid reg/recs going pop.

Well, I know it was GSXR something Yes it is a 3 phase or said to be by the ebay seller. You have me wondering now, I'm going to take a good gander tomorrow, but I'm sure the pins were 3 pins at the bottom row for the 3 phase (only 2 used in my case) and the 2 at the top row for battery and lights. Oh bollocks, now you're making me paranoid, I'm going to take some numbers of the thing and research it make sure it's kosher or should that be Halal being politically correct , pukka.

[BertTrack]

You can add half a phase by putting a diode on one of the 3 connectors. Just in case you need a little more power.

[Anorak_ian]

You can add half a phase by putting a diode on one of the 3 connectors. Just in case you need a little more power.

Interesting, I shall remember that trick. Thanks.

[tappy]

I've had a little look at some of the GSXR600 wiring diagrams.

An early bike had an alternator with an integral rectifier/regulator (like a car, or my ZX9R) so simply has two wires: +12 & 0V

All the other bikes have 3 wires coming out of the alternator - typically yellow, sometimes white, but they'll all be the same colour. To get decent, reliable power off one of these without damaging it, you must use all 3 phases.

If there are additional wires then these *might* be from a co-located signal generator for the ignition, or you haven't got a GSXR alternator, in which case they're very probably ignitor coils. Either way - they won't generate significant electrical power.

The 3 phases should be hooked up to a reg/rec with 5 pins. The +12V and 0V are then taken back out of the reg/rec on the two remaining pins.

If you try to use the alternator with just one or 2 phases it's likely to kill it - and the regulator - fairly quickly.

[gilburton]

I'm not in to the technical/theoretical side of electrics(I'm ok with red/black/green/blue etc ) but it seems to me if you have a high revving alternator from a bike/car etc. all you have to do is put a slightly larger drive pulley on to make it turn faster??
Having said that my 2cv alternator runs fine backwards with a similar size drive pulley to the car
After starting at idle my Gammatronix charge indicator almost immediately turns to green to indicate it's getting a charge.

[Anorak_ian]

I've had a little look at some of the GSXR600 wiring diagrams.

An early bike had an alternator with an integral rectifier/regulator (like a car, or my ZX9R) so simply has two wires: +12 & 0V

All the other bikes have 3 wires coming out of the alternator - typically yellow, sometimes white, but they'll all be the same colour. To get decent, reliable power off one of these without damaging it, you must use all 3 phases.

If there are additional wires then these *might* be from a co-located signal generator for the ignition, or you haven't got a GSXR alternator, in which case they're very probably ignitor coils. Either way - they won't generate significant electrical power.

The 3 phases should be hooked up to a reg/rec with 5 pins. The +12V and 0V are then taken back out of the reg/rec on the two remaining pins.

If you try to use the alternator with just one or 2 phases it's likely to kill it - and the regulator - fairly quickly.

Oh Bugger!
I've got some work to do then. Thanks for your help.

[Anorak_ian]

I'm not in to the technical/theoretical side of electrics(I'm ok with red/black/green/blue etc ) but it seems to me if you have a high revving alternator from a bike/car etc. all you have to do is put a slightly larger drive pulley on to make it turn faster??
Having said that my 2cv alternator runs fine backwards with a similar size drive pulley to the car
After starting at idle my Gammatronix charge indicator almost immediately turns to green to indicate it's getting a charge.

Oh, no, my alternator is under the flywheel, not a belt type.

[Anorak_ian]

Just looked up the numbers on the reg/rec RS41 33E2 51 2A26 it is a suzuki GSXR but also a Honda CBR900RR.

Well I guess I'm looking for another, I'll go for a single (typo) phase this time.

I was a bit surprised when I looked up the specs of the original Ducati (Ruggerini/Lombardini) Reg/rec, as the lighting current is alternating.

[Anorak_ian]

I have decided to get a replacement Ducati (Ruggerini) reg/rec, as this is single phaze, the one that I'm getting is from a Ducati 900, the same reg/rec is used on MotoGuzi and Laverda bikes.
I take it they are the same item as we would have on our diesels, although look a little different?

Here's a link to Ducati energia http://www.ducatienergia.com/eng/prodotto.php?id=39
It clearly states that lighting output is AC current, can anyone confirm this, or is this a different reg/rec to the 900 Duke?
I have looked on the wiring diagram for the duke 900; the lighting circuit joins the live from the battery. Can this really be AC and DC on the same circuit? If so how is the battery coping with AC?

On another website http://668tech.laverda-nz.org/regulator.html, I have found this info:
The Ducati regulator uses a series thyristor for rectification and control, that has a lot of loss. Most systems, including the Electrex replacement (aftermarket) use simple diodes for rectification that has much lower loss. They put thyristors across the alternator to short it out when the battery voltage is high enough. I have to assume that the alternator coils won't overheat.

That's a good question, which brings me back to; is this the same reg/rec as the Ducati (ruggerini) that we find on our diesels?

Thanks for your help guys.

[Anorak_ian]

Ok, answering my own questions here after research.

Ducati energia's (not Ducati bike company) website is crap, and only lists one reg/rec (AC/DC), they make or have made a whole load of different types of reg/rec in the past but all have the same look. I only looked in to single-phase regs (two yellow wires from the alternator).

They make AC only, and AC & DC for Lambretta scooters. AC was for lighting, what the battery was for I don't know.

DC regs were for bigger bikes like Ducati, Laverda, Cagiva, MotGuzzi etc etc. Model numbers changed due to product improvements over the years, and I'm guessing also output ampage.

The reg that the Ruggerini RD211 uses (343620) is 24 amp (17 amps (204 watts) to the battery, and 7 amps (84 watts) to the lighting). A close match is the Cagiva Elefant with a 25 amp output; this is the only one that I have found that has the ampage stamped on them. I’m guessing that they are all pretty much the same and would probably work with our diesels.

In the Ruggerini RD211 manual it states that the reg/rec uses diodes and no mention of thyristors, so was this duff information or are they all like that, if so it may be worth going aftermarket to avoid over heating alternator coils if you have removed your flywheel fan.

Ducati: 400ss, 650ss 750ss, 900ss (reg no' 343637 & 343627), Paso (Reg no' 343524)
MotoGuzzi: LeManns 850
Cagiva: Elefant (Reg no' 343582 & 343632)
Laverda: Jota & Monduic ?

These reg/recs have a bad name for braking down or even catching on fire, but I'm sure that a lot of this was down to 1980's bad bike electrics and bad reg/rec earths (earth direct to the battery as well as the frame/engine), as well as reg/recs being positioned in very bad positions, like under seats where no air could circulate. For us, a good position would be inside the fan housing.
There are after market reg/recs available for these bikes that are said to be of better quality.

[tappy]

Hi Ian,
I'm not sure why you were using a GSXR alternator, or why you nw might be swapping back, but the Harley alternators and reg/rec available at Electrex are single phase. I've got a Harley "Big Twin" alternator that I intend to graft to a different fly-wheel as I figure it's used to heavy vibration and will output plenty of power at low rpms.
I can measure the dimensions / take pictures etc if that would help?
P.S. - did I read further back up this thread that you're kick-starting your engine? How's that working out?

[Anorak_ian]

Hi Tappy, I'm not using a GSXR alternator; I'm using a GSXR Reg/rec.
The stator (alternator) is the original single phase Ruggerini.

I'm now going to swap the 3 phase GSXR reg/rec, for a replacement that is almost original type Ruggerini /Ducati single phase. I thought it would be a good idea as the GSXR has a bad reputation, lol now I find so do Ducati. Well they have survived from the 1980's and 1990's so I'm guessing there safe (getting 2 of them so I have a spare).

I was really thinking of the ride to Hamm, I don't want any more lost sleep due to failing electrics. Last year almost 24 hours non-stop riding, I wish I could say I saw a lot of the Dutch and German countryside but I really didn't. Almost ended up in a couple of ditches, ya know, where the hell has the damn road gone, Aggghh!!! lol I'm hoping to pop over to France this year as well.

My knowledge of Harley regs etc are a bit limited but the ones that I used had no lighting output on the reg/rec, all juice came from a dirty big battery. Heavy stuff, got to watch the power to weight.

Ah yes kick starting, on lookers get a real kick out of watching me do that, but the novelty wears off on a long journey. I have to re fuel every 130 miles on the way to Hamm (just over 600 miles) as my tank is only about 1. 7 UK gallons. So that's just under 70mpg. A lot of kick starting, when ya get tired, it gets harder to start as you put less efort in to it and then it doesn't turn over. The bike should do a lot better than 70mpg, she used to do 75.5 without these new baffels flat out, but she was way over baffled robbing her of power and economy. I might just leave the starter motor behind this year (loose some weight), and fit a spare battery in its place.

[tappy]

OOOOOH I SEEEE! I thought you were using a GSXR alternator.
You *should* be able to connect the single phase alternator output to any two of the 3 lower pins on the GSXR reg/rec. The two upper pins should then be +12V and earth.

On most modern bikes there is no "lighting coil" - all the power from the alternator goes through the same wires - the battery takes what it needs and the lights etc take what they need.

The harley reg/rec would be fine - those harley alternators kick out plenty of current to recharge a big battery after starting and run loads of lights etc. If you use them with a smaller alternator and smaller battery it won't make any odds - the reg/rec will just be a bit over engineered, but it won't try to over-charge the smaller battery..