engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

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balboa_71
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engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by balboa_71 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:20 am

I've been very interested in building a shaft drive diesel conversion. There are several out there using BMW's, Ural's, Moto Guzzi's, and Dneper's. I've own both a Ural and Moto Guzzi T3 850, and have to say the Ural was very easy to work with. My question is this: how does one adapt say a parallel twin Hatz, multi cylinder Kubota, or even a Punsun V-twin to work with one of these bikes clutch and transmission?
I'm guessing there are no commercially available adapter available on the market. If I remember correctly, my old Guzzi T3's flywheel/clutch was of unusual design and probably would not work with any engine out there.
Do any of you members have one of these conversions and would like to discuss the engineering process?

Thanks,
Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by coachgeo » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:34 am

IMHO easiest way to go on this is scrap the tranny and do a CVT to a jackshaft with CVT one one side and joint on the other that the shaft drive attaches too. Well could take less space than orginal tranny giving you more room for larger engine and/or for less modifications to the frame. Will be better ratios then the old tranny anyway.

LocomotiveBreath on here I think has a spare engine to tranny adapter plate and or can have his coppied for others by a machineshop and sent your way ..... for the right price of course. Still think CVT is better though.

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by Nanko » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:05 pm

Cris , in case you offer your T3 , mount the GUZZI flywheel on the diesel engine.
I use a 4 cilinder and the flywheel is heavy enough for 750 rpm idle
Maybe some weight has to be added in case a twin is used.
Advantages :startermotor is mounted on the gearbox and standard guzzi clutch kan be used.
The original guzzi starter was not strong enough and has been replaced by a MITSUBISHI
peugeot TUD5 - MOTO GUZZI 16.500 km so far

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by balboa_71 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:25 pm

Coachgeo,
My current bike is set up the way you describe, Comet converter and all. I'm trying to do something different this time around, in addition, I'm trying to get in touch a supplier for Comet parts just to maintain what I already have on the road. I can machine an adapter where I work, should that be a solution.

Nanko,
I sold my T3 a few years ago, I'd rather go with another Ural or older Beemer. Maybe I can find someone here in the states wanting to part with their conversion. BTW, I had to put a reduction gear type starter on my T3 before selling as the Bosch starter and battery arrangement was to weak to turn it over in cooler months. Should have kept the old girl :-)

Thanks,
Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by coachgeo » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:35 pm

balboa_71 wrote:Coachgeo,
My current bike is set up the way you describe, Comet converter and all. I'm trying to do something different this time around, in addition, I'm trying to get in touch a supplier for Comet parts just to maintain what I already have on the road. I can machine an adapter where I work, should that be a solution....
IMHO forget Comet. go with IBC AKA CVtech. out of Canada.

Play with the math. Since no used IBC's around the states but are more so in Germany, UK Etc. cause they have 3cyl. cars that use them, the math might show it is much much cheaper to buy used overseas and ship to you then to buy a new from USA or Canada.

Is your build thread in here?

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by balboa_71 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:02 pm

Coachgeo,
I could'nt make head or tails out of IBC's website (French) :roll: My build was detailed out on the old Yahoogroups diesel bike group back in 2007. It's similar to Crazy Jerry's build which can be found on the net. My bike weighs a good 100 lbs over Jerry's and is slower. I went with heavy steel components, but geared accordingly. A lot of conversions go with very stiff gearing, bikes that will run 80 mph, but don't have the HP to get there, even going down hill. I can get an honest 55 mph out of my ride, but it sounds like my old '63 Noton 650 (with no mufflers) running 120 mph! Between the din coming from the aluminum cases and straight thru fish tail exhaust, there's nothing quite like it.

Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by DieselFly » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:57 pm

balboa_71 wrote:... could'nt make head or tails out of IBC's website (French) :roll:
Right bellow the CVTech-Ibc and above the menu on the left are french english selctions :D

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by balboa_71 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:20 am

Sean,
I missed the English section. Upon looking their pdf's over I'm thinking $$$ for their products. Looks like they only supply OEM's.... To bad there are no dealers here in the states.

Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by coachgeo » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:33 am

balboa_71 wrote:....To bad there are no dealers here in the states.

Cris
Believe there are. If not mistaken you can order direct from them too.

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by mark_in_manchester » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:38 pm

Hi Balboa -

I've put a Daihatsu car engine onto a Ural transmission - it's easy where you can use the Ural flywheel on your replacement engine, though how easy will depend on the detailing of the end of the crank. On mine all I had to do was turn the boss (containing the taper) off the back of the flywheel, shrink in a disc to reduce the diameter of the central hole down to that of the boss on the end of the crank, and then drill 6 holes around it to bolt the thing on to the flange around this boss. So long as the hole in the middle is a good fit on the crank and truly concentric with the flywheel OD, then the 6 holes can be pretty approximate for this kind of fitting - so long as the bolts will go through. If the end of your crank is tapered or the fit involves keyways etc, then this process will be more of a pain. Whatever, I guess you'll need to put the Ural flywheel up on a faceplate, clock it to run true on its OD, and work from there...

The Ural clutch is OK for the 50-ish bhp the engine can develop, and though the flywheel weighs a whole lot less that the original on the car, it ticks over fine even at freezing temperatures - which means flywheel effect is fine since rotational inertia rises with engine speed. The downsides are no starter-ring, so kickstart only - but this engine (331cc per pot, 3 cyl) kicks over fine, one pot at a time - and a rather noisy clutch, since I'm running it open in the air with 8 x 10mm 'legs' spanning large 2 large plates, one on the back of the block, and one on front of the gearbox. 8 such large legs, may be overkill - plates are in 10mm steel, which is also overkill. Johnny Flatau on the 'extremedieselbiking.de' site uses a BMW R69 diaphragm clutch on his Ural conversion, but though this produces a much quieter, more civilised clutch, it involved spending money...

PM me if you want a load more detail on aligning gearbox and clutch - Ural clutch spines are a nice loose fit on gearbox input shaft, so you've got room for a few thou misalignment without chewing them off.

I'm running a 1:1 top gear ratio in the Ural box, and 3.2:1 Ural bevel box at rear wheel - which gives good fuel economy and a high top speed if you can pull it, but leaves a huge gap between 3rd and 4th. Dnepr fans reckon their gearbox is better than Ural, and I *think* 3rd as well as 4th gear ratio may be changeable - with Ural, 4th is the only one you can mess with. I'm in the process of collecting scrap Dnepr boxes to start messing - though dnepr box is 'longer' overall..

cheers

Mark

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by coachgeo » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:39 pm

mark_in_manchester wrote:Hi Balboa -

I've put a Daihatsu car engine onto a Ural transmission -

Mark
Daihatsu Diesel cars are not available at all in the USA

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by balboa_71 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:35 am

Mark,
Thanks for the detailed conversion description. Others have suggested using Ural flywheel on whatever engine is used. I always thought that a flywheel and crankshaft when treated as an assembly had to be balanced as a unit. Guess that's not true.... Probably the most popular engine here is the states is Kubota, and there are others used in lawn and garden equipment, skid loaders and bobcats.
There is an interesting article on Utterpower.com about a Cushman 3 wheeler owner that had an adapter made so he could using a Yanmar L100 clone engine mated the Cushmans automotive style tranny and stock clutch. Cushmans have their flywheel on the front of the engine, so they have a small thin plate mounted to the crankshaft, inside the bellhousing that the pressure plate bolts to.

Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by DieselFly » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:05 am

Cris
There are many dealers in the US. Most are 4 wheeler or snowmobile shops here is one to start with. http://airdamclutches.com/CVTech.aspx
you can read about my CB500t Bobber in the build thread running a CVTech set up. I'm working on a second Vtwin diesel right now again a bobber. We will be doing a 81 1100 Kaw next year. All will sport CVTs. As far as Yanclones they are $549 and are on the shelf at the local Princess Auto. You can check out what we have been building at the high school (the diesel skunkworks) just search Kitplanesolutions (all one word) on You Tube
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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by mark_in_manchester » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:51 am

Cris -

I should have pointed out that all that specific detail was meant to be more about how to mate a Ural transmission to any kind of engine - just using my experiences as a case study, I suppose. I think you can be confident that any engine will be balanced enough internally (crank will incorporate significant balance mass to counter con rod, piston etc) for vibration purposes - the flywheel just adds rotational intertia such that when ticking over, it will be able to store enough energy to pursuade the engine up the next compression stroke whilst maintaining reasonably constant rpm. If it will manage this at tickover, it'll manage it at any revs.

The big advantage with a shaft drive bike with non-integral gearbox is that there is no messing about with chain or belt primary drive, outrigger bearings, finding somewhere to put the clutch etc etc etc - the only bit of genuine engineering is fitting the bike flywheel to the crank concentrically, and then aligning the input shaft of the gearbox with the clutch splines. All else (mounting gearbox to engine, getting it all in the frame) is more 12" ruler than vernier work, and can be accomplished using the most agricultural fabrication techniques - so long as the first two points are observed. Of course keeping one's wheels in some kind of alignment is a good idea...

I would say a Ural is a heavy bike, if you can only find a single cyl industrial engine to pull it with...most have used twins, triples or more. I have a Dnepr with a Reliant 4 cyl petrol engine in it, too (also fitted length-wise), which retains its gearbox, unlike Mouse's new 4 cyl VW creation on these pages. The whole thing is long, but not impossibly so...

cheers

M.

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by coachgeo » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:17 pm

mark_in_manchester wrote:Cris -

I should have pointed out that all that specific detail was meant to be more about how to mate a Ural transmission to any kind of engine - ..M.
With that in mind... the points mentioned by myself and others about CVT instead of Ural or any inline transmision may be more advantages cause of it's smaller physical size, easier to align with drive shaft, weight and vast improvement in ratios, bearings, clutching etc. Disadvantage of course if you truely like to "shift"

here is best video of the concept. This is Heiko's Honda which BTW is presently listed as for sale in the classifieds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnrX5DSY ... re=related

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by balboa_71 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:29 am

Well, I think I've got the picture. Thanks all, for the engineering details! BTW, that Honda CX500 conversion on U Tube is rather unique, should make for a nice ride when finished.

Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by coachgeo » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:30 am

balboa_71 wrote:... that Honda CX500 conversion on U Tube is rather unique, should make for a nice ride when finished.

Cris
was finished this winter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNXSOQS9 ... re=related

It is for sale in Germany and listed in our classifieds section.

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Re: engine to trany adapter, how is it done?

Post by balboa_71 » Fri May 06, 2011 10:40 pm

Coachgeo,
Sure would like to get my hands on that rig to ride. I bought a CX500 for my son years ago after he got out of HS. I'd drive it from time to time...it was silk smooth and had the best clutch of any bike I've ever owned. Problem was it was geared extremely low like you were going to be towing a side car and in the wind, it was all over the road. Never could figure out the wind thing, but the model I had was the laid back version with higher handle bars like the one in the video. The CX had pushrods instead of the dreaded OHC, which I sure most people didn't know. In fact, I think the CX was the first water cooled V-twin Honda ever built...or something like that.

Cris
1980 GS850 converted to 10hp diesel clone power.
2006 Jetta TDI for road work.
2007 Bonneville

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