Gearbox failure
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- Crazymanneil
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Gearbox failure
OK so a few of you know what happened. I was driving along when the gearbox locked up solid. This was at about 60mph and was in 4th (as you'll see!). I though it was the belt at first as I am experimenting with that a bit, but despite gearbox seizure the belt was ok and interestingly the engine spun the clutch up a bit rather than stall (which it did when I got off the throttle). There was a grinding noise from the gearbox and then this was followed by a sudden locking of the rear wheel, then brief unlocking and more locking up. Putting the clutch in had no effect so I was basically a passenger at that point. Thankfully it was a straight road and nobody was behind me...
So lets take a looksee what happened.
I opened the top of the box and found this - Not looking good so far, the gear you see at the top left with no teeth is 4th. So the box definately needs to come apart. I dismantle the clutch and outboard support bearing to find this - This was strange. Also on the sprocket (not pictured) were a spacer and nut. The nut was loose on the output shaft and spacer could not fit anymore as the threads were flush to the outer face of the sprocket. I checked the sprocket was seated and it was. That could only mean the output shaft had moved somehow. I went on to pull the rest of the internals out of the box - Here we get a better look at the stripped gear. The rest of the gears however seemed fine, I am sure the box would be good if this gear was replaced and put back together with new gaskets, clips etc. Not sure if the parts are available separately. Here is what got scooped out of the bottom of the box - Teeth all seem to have come off pretty completely. This would indicate the box was completely in gear when the event happend and it happened suddenly as opposed to being over a longer period of time. Lets pull that output shaft to have a look - It becomes a little clearer now. The pic is the back side of the output shaft where the dogs engage for 2nd gear. So what is my conclusion?
The nut on the sprocket came loose. It was loctited on but obviously this was not enough. This nut is left hand thread. Eventually it loosened enough to rub against my outboard bearing support holder. The nut rubbed this and combined with the counter-clockwise rotation of the shaft it unscrewed itself with some force. This pressed the output shaft into the gearbox (it is removed this way for disassembley and there is no circlip etc to keep it in place). When this happend the dogs on 2nd gear engaged to the output shaft despite the fact that the gearbox was already in 4th. We can see the marks on the back of the output shaft gear where this happened (on the left of each tooth). At that point everything was doomed. The weakest part of the box let go first which happened to be the 4th gear.
Lesson - make sure the spocket nut is tightened and check it regularly. Perhaps on the original bike there is enough clearance between sprocket and outboard bearing that if the nut comes loose it just sits there rather than pressing the output shaft. I'll also redesign the setup so that there is a locking tab or bolt in there to stop the nut coming loose.
Live and learn (the expensive way).
Neil
So lets take a looksee what happened.
I opened the top of the box and found this - Not looking good so far, the gear you see at the top left with no teeth is 4th. So the box definately needs to come apart. I dismantle the clutch and outboard support bearing to find this - This was strange. Also on the sprocket (not pictured) were a spacer and nut. The nut was loose on the output shaft and spacer could not fit anymore as the threads were flush to the outer face of the sprocket. I checked the sprocket was seated and it was. That could only mean the output shaft had moved somehow. I went on to pull the rest of the internals out of the box - Here we get a better look at the stripped gear. The rest of the gears however seemed fine, I am sure the box would be good if this gear was replaced and put back together with new gaskets, clips etc. Not sure if the parts are available separately. Here is what got scooped out of the bottom of the box - Teeth all seem to have come off pretty completely. This would indicate the box was completely in gear when the event happend and it happened suddenly as opposed to being over a longer period of time. Lets pull that output shaft to have a look - It becomes a little clearer now. The pic is the back side of the output shaft where the dogs engage for 2nd gear. So what is my conclusion?
The nut on the sprocket came loose. It was loctited on but obviously this was not enough. This nut is left hand thread. Eventually it loosened enough to rub against my outboard bearing support holder. The nut rubbed this and combined with the counter-clockwise rotation of the shaft it unscrewed itself with some force. This pressed the output shaft into the gearbox (it is removed this way for disassembley and there is no circlip etc to keep it in place). When this happend the dogs on 2nd gear engaged to the output shaft despite the fact that the gearbox was already in 4th. We can see the marks on the back of the output shaft gear where this happened (on the left of each tooth). At that point everything was doomed. The weakest part of the box let go first which happened to be the 4th gear.
Lesson - make sure the spocket nut is tightened and check it regularly. Perhaps on the original bike there is enough clearance between sprocket and outboard bearing that if the nut comes loose it just sits there rather than pressing the output shaft. I'll also redesign the setup so that there is a locking tab or bolt in there to stop the nut coming loose.
Live and learn (the expensive way).
Neil
Smart engined 800cc turbo diesel triumph tiger. 100mpg (imp)
Belfast to Kathmandu overland, 2010/2011 - http://www.suckindiesel.com
Bangkok to Sydney ???
Belfast to Kathmandu overland, 2010/2011 - http://www.suckindiesel.com
Bangkok to Sydney ???
Re: Gearbox failure
Glad your OK :S
only ever had a bike lock solid once..
little old 125cc 2 stroke sportsbike...
60mph and suddenly the back wheel locked :S
mine was the crank bearings fall apart...
at least it doesnt look too hard to repair and stop it happening again...
Good luck
only ever had a bike lock solid once..
little old 125cc 2 stroke sportsbike...
60mph and suddenly the back wheel locked :S
mine was the crank bearings fall apart...
at least it doesnt look too hard to repair and stop it happening again...
Good luck
- coachgeo
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Re: Gearbox failure
thanks for the report and diagnostics.
- Stuart
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Re: Gearbox failure
Sounds awfully familiar this. My extended clutch shaft helped my sprocket nut undo whilst in a lower gear (not 1to1 mode) and crunch, shafts got pushed and pulled ripping up the box. I still live in fear of it happening again should the nut come loose. I had my bro pushing the bike while I pulled my spanner in the opposite direction.
Green loctite and mega tightness called for I think.
Green loctite and mega tightness called for I think.
- andrewaust
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Re: Gearbox failure
Looks nasty Neil, I've striped first gear on a dirtbike once.
I've also seen complete gearbox failures from people having the drive chain to tight on dirt bikes leading to output shaft bearing failure - your failure is a newie.
Yeah life's a learning experience hey = bugga
A
I've also seen complete gearbox failures from people having the drive chain to tight on dirt bikes leading to output shaft bearing failure - your failure is a newie.
Yeah life's a learning experience hey = bugga
A
Re: Gearbox failure
A few of my friends used to do motocross, and they used to drill a small hole through the sprocket bolt head sideways, and then a couple through the sprocket itself (1 or 2 each side of the shaft) and run a length of lockwire from the sprocket, through the bolt head and then back to the sprocket.
Apparently that would stop the bolt undoing too much...
whether it actually worked, I dont know, but I thought I would mention it...
Apparently that would stop the bolt undoing too much...
whether it actually worked, I dont know, but I thought I would mention it...
- Crazymanneil
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Re: Gearbox failure
Thanks. I'll need to do something with this before I put it on the road again anyway. Will drop it off at an engineering place in the morning to get a locking spacer made up.
Got the new internals into the bike today but unfortunately the top cover does not fit now Another hard to find bit. May try buffing out the cover to see if it will clear the new internals tho too.
Neil
Got the new internals into the bike today but unfortunately the top cover does not fit now Another hard to find bit. May try buffing out the cover to see if it will clear the new internals tho too.
Neil
Smart engined 800cc turbo diesel triumph tiger. 100mpg (imp)
Belfast to Kathmandu overland, 2010/2011 - http://www.suckindiesel.com
Bangkok to Sydney ???
Belfast to Kathmandu overland, 2010/2011 - http://www.suckindiesel.com
Bangkok to Sydney ???
- coachgeo
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
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Re: Gearbox failure
Might want to check to see if the cover is suppose to put any preload on the outer bearings or anything? Will make the decision on how much to mill that cover a little more complicated if you go that route
- Crazymanneil
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Re: Gearbox failure
Hi,
don't think the cover is meant to touch anything. In any case I've a new cover ordered for 24hr delivery so hopefully back on the road tomorrow...
N
don't think the cover is meant to touch anything. In any case I've a new cover ordered for 24hr delivery so hopefully back on the road tomorrow...
N
Smart engined 800cc turbo diesel triumph tiger. 100mpg (imp)
Belfast to Kathmandu overland, 2010/2011 - http://www.suckindiesel.com
Bangkok to Sydney ???
Belfast to Kathmandu overland, 2010/2011 - http://www.suckindiesel.com
Bangkok to Sydney ???
- thundercougarfalconbird
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Re: Gearbox failure
neil, the 3 threaded screw holes in your sprocket are for a socket head bolt once you have tightened the nut, one of them will line up with a flat on the nut and keep it in place
I'll do what i feel.
- Crazymanneil
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Re: Gearbox failure
Quite right thundersomethingorother. The issue was that the sprocket I am using was thinner than original so I had to make a spacer. What I have done now is to make a new spacer which replicates the functionality you describe. Seems like a proper job now!
N
N
Smart engined 800cc turbo diesel triumph tiger. 100mpg (imp)
Belfast to Kathmandu overland, 2010/2011 - http://www.suckindiesel.com
Bangkok to Sydney ???
Belfast to Kathmandu overland, 2010/2011 - http://www.suckindiesel.com
Bangkok to Sydney ???
- thundercougarfalconbird
- I luv the smell of Diesel...
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Re: Gearbox failure
yes very true, i remember making a spacer fdor behind my sprocket, the chain sprockets are narrower then the belt drive sprockets the transmissions come with.
did you get it all sorted out with the gears? or order a new box?
did you get it all sorted out with the gears? or order a new box?
I'll do what i feel.
- Crazymanneil
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Re: Gearbox failure
Yes, complete new gearset (5 speed) sorted the issue. I was lucky to be able to do the whole job with the gearbox case still in the bike which saved a lot of hassle. Unfortunately the spacer I used is in front of the sprocket rather than behind. If it was behind then I could have used the holes in the sprocket. It would have been a better job for the gearbox position too although would have required machining the clutch.
Smart engined 800cc turbo diesel triumph tiger. 100mpg (imp)
Belfast to Kathmandu overland, 2010/2011 - http://www.suckindiesel.com
Bangkok to Sydney ???
Belfast to Kathmandu overland, 2010/2011 - http://www.suckindiesel.com
Bangkok to Sydney ???