I located and visited HDT and F1 Engineering

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LocomotiveBreath
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I located and visited HDT and F1 Engineering

Post by LocomotiveBreath »

I received a call today from John Hayes, explained my concerns, I was invited to come and see a bike, They wouldn't let me see inside the shop.
So I bought a gallon of corn oil for fuel and I rode my Hatz-Dnepr over to their shop. To date, only 21 Diesel bikes have been delivered of the 22 total built as of now as per John Hayes. The photos you have seen are of Gas powered KLR's mixed with a couple of Diesels? I met with Fred Hayes, talked to his wife (very nice lady) But from what I've seen, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting to ever own a Diesel KLR from HTD in the next couple of years if ever.

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HDT

Post by Stuart »

Nice one Dave :) Nothing like having someone right there who can check them out.
Does this 21 bikes relate to the second order? I assuming the first for I think 522 was completed?
After seeing some pics of the bike hangers/rails they had up inside I figured they'd showed their bank manager all the email/interest they had in their product and got investment.
As these guys are connected to the Military I don't find it too surprising that they may appear to play their cards close to their chests.
Only time will tell I gues.

I hope you took the oppotunity to look in their Dumpster, Dave? My be an old engine or two in there :?: :lol:

Well done for tracking them down.
Stuart. M1030M1, Honda NC700S, Grom!, Toyota Corolla 1.4 Turbo Diesel. Favouring MPG over MPH.
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22 bikes total!

Post by LocomotiveBreath »

Just 22 (NOT 522) total Diesel bikes built, and only 21 delivered, I saw only 1! (in the picture next to mine) as per John Hayes. The other 21 were on a ship and coudn't be accesed. Wondered why you haven't seen any reports on their usage? I didn’t look at actual records, but just quoting John Hayes. John asked where I saw the 522 number. They blamed any errors on F1 Engineering. They had no control over F1 Engineering’s web site and that F1 was a separate sub-contractor located in the next building. Note, look at the picture and look at the sign on the door. We went inside John and Fred’s office, had John Hayes bring up this web site along with other sites I've posted. He was amazed that Dieselbike.net used the gas rigs as wall paper.
Last edited by LocomotiveBreath on Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:51 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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wallpaper

Post by Stuart »

Looks like I'd better change that wallpaper then eh :D It's about time for a change anyway.
That order for 522 was placed way back according to various websites. I think most people think it would have been completed by now. And that kinda lent credance to the fact that the announcement about the models for the General Public being delayed because of another order.
But maybe it was the Same order :!:
And there's me thinking it was our best hope :roll:

Hey I like the engine in the front room. The way house prices are going here I may have to do some of that, garages becoming a bit of a luxury for most.
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You can buy a T-Shirt

Post by LocomotiveBreath »

You can buy a T-Shirt, http://www.hdtusa.com/store.htm , it should say, "We payed for a multi-million dollar Diesel dirt bike and all I got was this lousy t-shirt for $18-27 bucks more!"

I feel kinda of bad for those that wanted one and were waiting. But really, I'm much more impressed with the small home built Diesel Powered bikes such as ours. We are the ones that have little and make big things happen and make the world a better place. Then there are those that take millions from others and line their own pockets and pat their own backs and advertise to the public showing how wonderful thier contraption is (NOT).

Ethics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics
Last edited by LocomotiveBreath on Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Building your own

Post by Stuart »

It's thought that the next Hamm rally might be more of a mobile affair with everyone stopping off at Jocen Sommer's place to see how he builds his bikes. If it happens that should be interesting for those who need some inspiration to build their own machines. http://tinyurl.com/y4bypq

Nearest I ever got to building my on bike was transplanting a self tuned DT125 engine into a Sach. When you do the kind of work and hours I do (I only get Sundays off) I just wanna unwind Sundays by going out for a nice ride. Having done that kind of work all week that last thing I wanna see is a spanner, soldering iron or screwdriver. But yes, if the balance ever tips back in favour of me having some spare time to get bored then I might attempt something simple. As it is i just make do with little modifications to my existing bike.

This forum is always open for the guys at HDT to come on and put their side of the story. But yes, you're right. I thought things were a lot further down the line than they appear to be.
You should change your handle to 'Sherlock' Dave :D Much more appropriate :wink:
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I like Locomotive Breath

Post by LocomotiveBreath »

Stuart, in my opinion, your bike is a real Diesel powered bike vs. a wannabe diesel conversion. Now go out in the garage and give your bike fresh oil and a big hug (smile)
Last edited by LocomotiveBreath on Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Erik "EVA Products »

Nice job (Stuart) (This should be Dave i am adressing ! sorry),
allthough you were contacted by Hayes....;-)

It's a pitty the info is scarce but still hoping for the company they will get things going.

The impression you give is not very hopefull but still i hope Mr Hayes could give more data and not to get entangled with contracts !!.
I also run around in a red HDT dieselshirt that keeps me warm but losses "color"..........

I have only the option now to invite you guys to come over in spring of 2007 to visit my factory and testdrive some of the Track T-800CDI s.

If you are interested please let me know so we can arrange a combined meeting.

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Last edited by Erik "EVA Products on Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Anorak_ian »

Hardley Done a Thing, :lol: oh well always thought the job should have stayed in good old blighty, maybe they could make them at Cranfield, they could have McGuigan on the tank. :D
While I think about it, maybe the black bike owned by mr haze in the photo was the original made at Cranfield!! Ooer!
In a way I'm kind of happy as this may shake things up and maybe governments of the world won't put its eggs in one basket now. Competition has a way of making things happen.

Why oh why hasn't Hatz got in on the act, talk about industrial muscle, it's not like those engines are electronic gizmo equipped like the thunderstar, soldier proof is what they want. Sure they would have to diversify a bit and use technology that would be a bit different but worth it.
Hatz Diversifide Technology. :D

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Thats news

Post by Stuart »

Well I'm gonna have to put a line up about the HDT situation just as Dave says, as a lot of people were getting excited about that bikes arrival and it obviously 'ain't gonna be any time soon :cry:

I'd love a ride out on your bike Erik but will not be on the continent of Europe in spring. Some bikes are coming over from Germany in March possibly for the Ernie Dorsett memorial run in the English midlands near Meridan (old Triumph Works). Maybe you could join them?

Are you planning to take a bike to Hamm 07? I hope so. You are more than welcome to visit the British Rally in June. It's not as big but I'm sure all there will be pleased to see it.
Your bike looks like the best prospect now eh? :D
Stuart. M1030M1, Honda NC700S, Grom!, Toyota Corolla 1.4 Turbo Diesel. Favouring MPG over MPH.
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I kinda feel sorry for HDT

Post by LocomotiveBreath »

I'd take a wimpy Diesel generator engine powered bike anyday over HDT's contraption. Nice chassis though thanks to Kawasaki. Remember, they called our bikes with "REAL" diesel engines wimpy! http://www.f1engineering.com/diesel%20b ... s%202.html
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Dave
Last edited by LocomotiveBreath on Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Erik "EVA Products »

:roll: The story is getting more strange every day!!
Is what I read out of the info from Dave, it looks like HDT has no production and or development going on :?: .... or is this only an emotional interpretation ? Who did start this whole idea of building this Kawasaki based bike ? And what went wrong .

@ Stuart,
the new year 2007 for me is to proof all effort untill now
make the customers happy with the bikes they ordered and we produced.
So full production (500 units for 2008 :D )can start at the end of 2007 after the evaluation of the first 50 .
So attending the rally's are not a top priority if you know what I mean. That is why I did put my invitation overhere.

regards

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Good luck

Post by LocomotiveBreath »

Erik, I wish you best of luck. You seem to be using proven and avalible parts. I wish we could have Smart Cars to rob parts from here in the states but our freedom has bought us leaders that dictate to what we can buy and own. If it burns lots and lots of gas to support war, we can have that.
Last edited by LocomotiveBreath on Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bike building

Post by Stuart »

That KLR engine only shares one or two parts (outer cover and coil I think) with the old KLR engine. It is quite aways from a standard KLR petrol engine. I got to see where they designed the thing and all the castings that were laying about and the technical drawings. Stuart McGuigan was good enough to invite me into his office so a bit unfair to say it's a modified petrol lump.

An American Rally would be interesting, Dave. There are certainly a few bikes about over there and some I know exist but have been unable to get pictures of.

Erik, you have your work cut out to produce those bikes. I wish you well there. You are the standard bearer for a fledgling industy :)
But keep you eye on the BMW and the Far East. In a magazine article the good Doctor dropped a hint about BMW and I sent a DVD video disc Of combined Hamm Rallies to most, but not all four, Jap research centres a while back.
I wondered what they though of the close up of brother snoring that I left on the film :lol:
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Post by Rick »

Yaknow, I've followed the development (or lack thereof) of this thing for a long time now.. And I keep coming back to one thing.. What EXACTLY is the merit of this KLR bike?
Obviously, it's going to be expensive to build, buy, and maintain. Sure it had fair performance for a diesel, but at what price?
It seems to me that for a true "utility" machine, the military would have been far better of to start with a known engine. Along the lines of a Hatz, Lombardini, etc.. Air-cooled for simplicity, and used a heavy duty CVT. Here in the States, we have snowmobiles using them that are pushing 200 hp. And 10,000 rpm. We also have ATV's above 500cc, 4 wheel drive, using belts that offer a LIFETIME gurantee on the belt. And these things get drug through all kinds of mud, slop, snow, etc...
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Post by Anorak_ian »

Rick, I know what ya mean, not very powerful when you think of it, but it's merit comes from being able to run on almost any fuel, diesel, kerosene, paraffin, cat urine etc. :)

A 200 hp 10,000 rpm air cooled diesel engine? Tell me more!

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Post by Rick »

Sorry I didn't make that clear enough. The snowmobiles are NOT diesel. They are mostly 4 cyl, DOHC, fuel injected now. I was only making the point that the CVT drive could readily be made to handle high horsepower, and adverse conditions..
Another plus for the military (I would think at least) would be that a CVT would pretty much be "rideable" by anyone..
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military KLR

Post by balboa_71 »

I've been following this thread, and now I'm going to ask you all a few questions because I've been under a different impression concerning the diesel conversion of the KLR for both military and private use.....please excuse my ignorance :oops: :

Hasn't the military been receiving diesel converted bikes for over a year now?

If the military is receiving this bike, why can't the public receive the same converted bike without military logo's etc.?

I thought all this was "old news" and now the general public was buying these bikes to the tune of $17,000 or so. I was under the impression that KLR's were chosen because the military is using them (gas version) and is happy with the results, however, the military wants a bike that runs on diesel, kero, and jet fuel......not gasoline.

Cris
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Re: Bike building

Post by LocomotiveBreath »

Stuart wrote:That KLR engine only shares one or two parts (outer cover and coil I think) with the old KLR engine. It is quite aways from a standard KLR petrol engine. I got to see where they designed the thing and all the castings that were laying about and the technical drawings. Stuart McGuigan was good enough to invite me into his office so a bit unfair to say it's a modified petrol lump.
Sure, I'm suprised if any of the parts would interchange besides nuts and bolts. If it were an exact copy, it would cause copyright and Patent infringement. I bet Kawasaki has lots of well trained lawyers. Sure it's modified, and I'll bet they showed you lots of drawings, blueprints, or as-built drawings. I'll pull up my auto-desk, auto-cad, or any other 3d computer generated drafting software, hit print and my plotter will print anything. If I had a 4-5 axis CNC milling machine, and a chucked up a block of aluminum, I could make anything. Like an almost exact copy, just slighty different so not violate patent laws.

I'm not wanting to be mean, cruel, or ugly. If I see someone wanting to set a land speed record using square wheels, I'd say something, no matter how they might advertise the the wheels are round, a square wheel is still square, no matter how fast you spin it. I offered my help in anyway when I was there, I'd like to help, I see the desire for their product. They blew me off, which is fine, they had their one chance.

How come if the bike was/is so wonderful, why have I never seen it tested by any independent reviewers, Motorcycle magazines, Road and Track. Everything that has been writen about the bike is all hearsay by them from my perspective. Just as what I write to this forum now.

As for Rick, I feel the same, maybe the next Marine vehicle will be an atomic powered pogo stick! While I was at HTD, I questioned John at HTD, why not use a CVT as Rick as sugested. Polaris ATV's use CVT and Polaris has developed a 455cc Diesel engined ATV w/CVT which is no longer avalible, but when one will come up on eBay, they demand a very high price.

Good CVT video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWkpLrnAjEU

Well, I've done enough as I never had any desire for the Bike in question, and my co-dependency to protect those that might not be well informed has to stop.

Back to the shop to play with my projects , oh heck it's a nice clear day, and as Arlo Guthie would sing, "I don't want a pickle, I just wanna ride my motorcikle!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g266Uwp6ZnI
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delays

Post by Stuart »

Yes Chris,
looking like there are some delays with the KLR. I thought the American Government may have thrown some money at that kind of project after the Pesident made his speech about oil dependancy and all that reliance on middle eastern oil :cry:
Government contractors should perhaps take a leaf out of the book used by more commercial companies and ship production to China. The way those guys copy engines well, if they could keep a tight rein on it I'm sure they could turn them out by the thousand in no time and all for a bag of rice :D

I still rate the KLR engine though. It looks like a bike engine because of where it has to go. Huge bottom end to handle the increased pressures and a lot of thought went into re-designing the gearbox and getting the ratios right.
Image
It was pointed out to me that the prototype I rode had a slight wine from those gears because the people that made them didn't follow the instructions and bevel the edges off correctly. The design software says it should have been done. It was after that first one.
To do it all within a budget means they didn't have time to make it radically different. It's a high revving diesel and runs on different oil based fuels.
These guys also won the contract to do the new 5 speed Royal Enfield Gearbox and done that just fine.
The only problems I can see are with the manufacture of it.
Let the Chinese or Koreans make it under licence. Their standards are improving all the time. That may be the only way we'll get to see this engine.
Last edited by Stuart on Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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diesel KLR

Post by balboa_71 »

Stuart,
Okay, so you are saying that there is really a diesel KLR and not some show piece that runs on gasoline??? I'm trying to read between the lines here on this topic, and as you can see, I'm not up to following the topic very well.
All I can say is the gas KLR engine needs a lot of rethinking IMHO. I'd never use it for diesel base as it is too fragile in a few departments. I can say this as I own one (2005 model), so no one can slam me on this. While the gas engine will take the bike around town at 100mph, it is no Rotax. Kawasaki employs a POS chain to keep the balancer shafts in tune, and to make things worse, the tensioner is dead ringer for trashing the engine. Last, I believe in air/oil cooled engines for motorcycles, not water cooling, sorry to those I offend with this statement, but after owning a Suzuki 1400 Intruder, and runing it thru 100+ degree weather for a summer, at top speed with no problems, I believe in this technoligy. My KLR goes wonky in the heat department during the summer if you don't keep it out on the highway and at good speeds. Can you imagine a KLR diesel with water cooling in high temps puttng around the desert with the temp gauge pegged on "H"???

Cris
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exist

Post by Stuart »

Yeah it exists :) Only not quite in the numbers we expected this far down the line. Shame that.
Yes I attend various bike gatherings, not all big, and I'm told that some mechanics won't touch the Petrol KLR. I can only guess this is because they don't like working on those engines :) I can't recall what models came out but one old KLR I saw had a huge (and I must say slightly weird) looking cylinder arrangment. That is opposed to a smaller capacity bike I later saw. Never was that taken with the original KLR engine myself. But I've heard Army sorces say it was 'stone-axe simple' so maybe that suited them?
As far as cooling goes there maybe other considerations as far as the Diesel KLR goes. Best I can think of is noise. If it must run on diesel it's gonna have a knock. A water jacket quietens this considerably. Just the thing if there was an enemy soldier about looking to shoot you :) I'm not saying liquid cooling is the best (it's obviously has potential to be just another problem that has to be fixed in the field whereas aircooled stuff won't leak) but I'd say it was a nessessity if you gotta have a military Diesel bike.
I just think that for the time, budget and considerations they had to take on board the team who designed that engine did a pretty good job. And they are seperate from those who are expected to build it.
I've heard the German army aren't interested because of the top end vibes but wondered whether F1 had cured this with the reduced flywheel on the 611cc model? Obviously it was reduced because of bigger capacity but, as Diesel Dave once told me, there are two ways on balancing flywheels up. If Fuji Robin could get it wrong (and they did ) maybe the early diesel KLR's did :?:
On reflection though they were well into their detail and I suspect not. High speed diesels and gonna generate a lot of forces at high revs and there's not much you can do about that unless you've an endless budget to play with.
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:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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diesel KLR

Post by balboa_71 »

Stuart,
Your right about the water cooling and reduction of noise....I wasn't thinking of that :oops: Anyways, my KLR is difficult to work on, I don't like the way it's designed and would not buy another. On the positive side, it's very quiet, gets great fuel mileage, and after the first 10,000 miles or so, you don't need to adjust the valves as they pretty much have worn in for the long run. What is strange about the design is this: engine should put out all kinds of HP (DOHC) but is set to deliver lots of torque thru the entire rpm range. This equates to no HP on the top end, period. There is no point reving the engine above 4,000 rpm as it will only deliver lots of vibes and tax the cooling system. When I was thinking about building a diesel bike, I would ride my KLR around and watch the tack, noticing where I was shifting and trying to relate to an engine that would only rev to 3,600 rpm. I was amazed to find that I never went over 3,600 rpm on the KLR!!! Shifting was always below that and performance wasn't an issue. I could outrun the traffic and never speed the engine.
All this talk is only to point out that I feel a "high speed diesel" should not have to rev to the moon to get enough power to the ground 8)

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High speed diesels

Post by Stuart »

Yeah reckon you're right about high revving diesels. It should be about the low end torque. I guess bikes are synonymous with high revs and most would expect to be able to get some.
The KLR revs just high enough to feel like a bike should. Having ridden a Generator bike for the best part of five years now it would be nice to have a few more revs available.
The amount of people who switch to diesel cars and then blow the head gaskets in search of revs is quite high I hear :D
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deleated

Post by LocomotiveBreath »

deleated
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Post by Anorak_ian »

Didn't I see this contraption on the centrefold of "Ugly and Crappy Magazine"? :lol:


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Post by LocomotiveBreath »

Anorak_ian, I wouldn't know.
Last edited by LocomotiveBreath on Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by richard coles »

hi, on the military diesel bike topic take a look at this
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2004-32-0055
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V twin

Post by Stuart »

Nice find Richard :D
'Four-Stroke, V-Twin Diesel Motorcycle Engine With Electronic Common-Rail Fuel Injection' :shock:
Now one of these would be nice :!:
I might have to buy that paper (if I sell something on ebay later this week). If I do I'll let you know what it says. If anyone else buys it mail me a copy, eh :?: Would be an interesting read.
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Post by andrewaust »

Hi Guy's


MMMMMM! That's a bummer regarding the KLR Diesel :cry: It's only a matter of time before someone thinks to mass produce, now BMW should take up the chance as they seem to have a chassis and gearbox that would work well with a 3cyl electronic injected turbo engine.

Still love running around on the Enfield and after a bit of tinkering have the ole thing doing 100 K's no probes

Now think what we could do with one of those electronic injected V twins with a hair dryer attached :lol: Low revs and mass torque :wink:

If I could slot one in a Enfield frame ! :shock:




Cheers

Andrew
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