Citroen Saxo Bike

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Mouse
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Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by Mouse » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:27 am

Some of you will have heard me grumbling about making a new diesel bike. Well I've started and it looks like I may be on for a winning combination, probably.

[I've cross posted this from another forum so theres a bit of extra story to go with the build]

The main idea is to use a car engine again but this time use the Peugeot / Citroen Metro etc 1500cc diesel engine and gear box that has been fitted to many cars over the years rather than the larger 1900 lumps. Then use the car gearbox but get the drive from the second shaft in the box rather than from the diff output like other builds. What makes this possible is that all cars of this era started off mainly as 4 speed boxes and then as sales pressures went up they all competed by offering 5 speed options. So rather than design a whole new gearboxes they were adapted, ie the 5th gear was put outside the original gearbox on extended shafts and then enclosed with a tin cover. This will allow a hole to be made on this simple cover and a shaft attached to the gear to go to the shaft drive of the bike. Hopefully this will be more clear as the build continues.....

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The first thing to do was to obtain a left handed shaft drive. The reasons for using a shaft on the left is the direction of shaft spin on the output of the gearbox I plan to use. I was going to use a BMW R80 shaft drive unit upside down but after extensive research found that the crown and pinion gear in the bevel drive could easily have been either a spiral gear or a hypoid gear. There is no real way of knowing which but if they are hypoid then because of the tooth profile are weaker in reverse than forwards. Odd but thats what the text books are saying.
Anyway on the Way to collect the complete rolling chassis there is a massive rumble and I pull over onto the hard shoulder to find the alternator lay shaft bearing has collapsed. To get me going I pull the belt to one side and proceed at about 45mph for about 5 miles until I find a bit of shelter off the motorway.

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Loads of shelter and almost out of view from the passing punters where a spare bearing is fitted.

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As my legendary lateness was preceding me Matt had prewritten a note for me and was indeed just getting into his car to go to the airport as I arrived. He left a friend of his to oversee the removal of the rolling chassis. Infact they got so fed up waiting for me that they had already dismantled the whole bike leaving me the only task of loading it up and sodding off which was all rather swift.


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I do admire his garden burner.

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The trip home was very slow, there was a mild head wind which required full throttle which anybody who has followed the Z482 diesel bike know results in epic smoke from the exhaust. Many stops were had to check the straps and have a cupper.
Also note: The Z482 has done 11000 miles since I built it in the spring. 8)

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The next mammoth task was to clear the bike room of the house and took the best part of a whole day but well worth the effort.

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First lay out the shaft and have a think over a cupper.

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Then I located an engine on Gum Tree from a local bloke. It took 4 days for him to return my texts and messages but I eventually obtain an engine and gearbox for £180 after knocking him down by £50 and then getting him to transport it across town and help me up the garden path with it.


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Engine on the floor next to the rear end.

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There is a whole bunch of useless bits here.

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A vaccum pump that can be removed and blanked off later on.
Then there is this monstrosity under the vaccum pump that holds the fuel filter and a whole load of plumbing bollocks and the thermostat.
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All that can be removed and a adaptor plate made to hold only these two tiny bits for the thermostat and radiator connection.

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Much better

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But the inlet manifold also comes off because I dont like it.

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Engine stripped of useless bits and looking more compact already.

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Then it's gearbox off time Image
Then the tin end cover removed to expose the 5th gear.

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The nut is removed after jamming a bit of rag in between the gears to lock them solid.

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This allows removal of the three pronged washer thing that appears to be retaining the synchro unit.

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So somehow I've got to attach a shaft to this hardened centre bit of the 5th gear synchro unit. It is solidly attached to the output shaft of the gear clusters but without the annoying reduction to the differential unit.

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This shaft is obviously offset to the input shaft and hence offset to the centre of the engine. A rough measurement of 60mm offset is made.

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But the offset of the chosen swingarm is about 90mm So if I want to mount the engine vertically it will be 30mm to the left. I shall think about this problem later.... maybe tilt the engine slightly to keep the centre of gravity in the centre of the bike.

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The gearbox in position next to the shaft. To get the drive on the correct side of the bike I've had to invert the gearbox. I shall have to make an adaptor plate to hold it in this position on the engine. As well as make new filler / drain plugs and block the breather and replace the selector arm seals which might be a strip and rebuild job. I may also have to relocate the starter motor and chop chunks off the diff part of the gearbox housing which I hadn't anticipated.

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The adaptor has to couple the shaft to the 5th gear synchro bits.


Because of the extra length of the gearbox and the longer swingarm of the GS650 I estimate the whole finished bike will be about 450mm (or about a foot and a half) longer than a normal big bike which will be interesting.

Anybody know if the GS650GS had a oil flooded transmission tube like the BMW R80 or was it dry with greased UJ??



.
Kubota Z482 which is plodding on with unnerving reliability. Three years so far.
1900 Diesel Bike being rebuilt with better clutch control.

Nanko
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by Nanko » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:13 am

Excellent engine choice :)
You removed the thermostat housing which contains the post heat sensor.
Not sure if you plan to use an alternative , but the cold engine runs poor without.
The glowplugs have to be energyzed till the engine reaches 60 C
peugeot TUD5 - MOTO GUZZI 16.500 km so far

Mouse
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by Mouse » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:05 am

Thanks for the handy tip!! and probably saved me a world of grief when I come to start it. I've only ever energised the glowplugs of my current engine(s) prior to cranking and then only keeping them on for a further 10 seconds or so on the colder days. The engine did have this module and sub loom attached to it which you made me realise was the glow plug relay / timer unit. On the three previous diesel bikes I either operated the glow plugs with a loose wire or an extra horn switch on the handle bars which has been enough. As I have the correct unit and all the connectors and what would appear to be the temperature sensors I should incorporate it in the build. It will be easy to re mount the temperature sensors on the adaptor plate which will be at engine block temperature. The bike will also have a very good temperature gauge as I heard they can easily blow head gaskets if they overheat.

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Now all i have to do is wait for the Haynes manual to arrive in the post so I can workout how to wire it up properly. :wink:
Kubota Z482 which is plodding on with unnerving reliability. Three years so far.
1900 Diesel Bike being rebuilt with better clutch control.

Nanko
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by Nanko » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:29 pm

Mouse wrote: I heard they can easily blow head gaskets if they overheat.
The iron block (yours) is almost indestructable,and as far as I know the headgasket is a not weak point.
But its aluminium brother has some thermal issues.
peugeot TUD5 - MOTO GUZZI 16.500 km so far

mark_in_manchester
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by mark_in_manchester » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:16 pm

Mouse -

Not sure this is pointless info for you...but reading about your choice of LH bevel box, and reason (rotation of output shaft) - and also seeing this means your gearbox will have to be upside-down (!!) - it struck me that Russian bevel boxes expect an input rotation the opposite way around to that of BMW gearboxes (as people have found who have attempted to convert a Ural or Dnepr to use say R80 engine and gearbox, but retain Russian final drive... :D ). Crownwheel is *outside* the pinion on Russian FD units.

So - if BMW FD went the wrong way for you, would a Russian one work, allowing you to keep your gearbox the right way up? My Ural one has handled 50HP OK so far, and lots of ratios are avaiable.

Mouse
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by Mouse » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:26 pm

mark_in_manchester wrote:Mouse -
....would a Russian one work, allowing you to keep your gearbox the right way up? My Ural one has handled 50HP OK so far, and lots of ratios are avaiable.
Yea, I've thought of that but thaks for bring it up. I've noticed the Russian spares are dwindling fast and what people charge for them is forever rising. This is very different to when I bought a Dnepr about 10 years ago when spares were cheap and plentiful. There are many factors I considered and I was worried about the overall reliability with the extra power and torque of the diesel engine. I also couldn't find any rear ends for sale let alone a supply of bits to base a project on and possible replacements. So availability was the final nail in the coffin of using Russian bits vs the extra work in inverting the gearbox and using a Japanese rear end.

I also thought a modern Japanese rear wheel and disc brake would be a benefit to have on a heavy bike. :wink:

I am still very very tempted to do it this way. :?

PS Did you hear of my backwards R80 powered Dnepr outfit?? :oops:
Kubota Z482 which is plodding on with unnerving reliability. Three years so far.
1900 Diesel Bike being rebuilt with better clutch control.

XLerate
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by XLerate » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:51 am

Very interesting build, thanks for posting! Right off hand I'd say somebody up there likes you! Sure sounds like you got blessed in what could have been a catastrophic and potentially painful or deadly breakdown for starters, then of course managing to find all the bits and pieces so close to hand! This will be fun to follow, hope it all works out according to plan.

mark_in_manchester
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by mark_in_manchester » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:03 pm

[quote]I was worried about the overall reliability with the extra power and torque of the diesel engine... I also thought a modern Japanese rear wheel and disc brake would be a benefit to have on a heavy bike.[/quote]

I've found mine OK for 50hp, but I think you're right on both those points. If you end up wanting a Dnepr bevel box I'm sure I can find one for nearly free, though you'd still need (expensive) hi-ratio gear set to put in it.

I was thinking of another friend, when thinking of Russian / German hybrids which go like those Italian tanks in the old joke...so you went there too?

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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by Crazymanneil » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:39 pm

Is that a c5 in the background??

n
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Mouse
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by Mouse » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:42 pm

Yes, Sadly its not mine but belongs to my lodger who bought it very very cheap from a popular internet auction site.
Kubota Z482 which is plodding on with unnerving reliability. Three years so far.
1900 Diesel Bike being rebuilt with better clutch control.

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zarquon
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by zarquon » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:24 pm

Mouse wrote:Then use the car gearbox but get the drive from the second shaft in the box rather than from the diff output like other builds. What makes this possible is that all cars of this era started off mainly as 4 speed boxes and then as sales pressures went up they all competed by offering 5 speed options. So rather than design a whole new gearboxes they were adapted, ie the 5th gear was put outside the original gearbox on extended shafts and then enclosed with a tin cover. This will allow a hole to be made on this simple cover and a shaft attached to the gear to go to the shaft drive of the bike. Hopefully this will be more clear as the build continues.....
Hopefully :)

I'm very excited how the build will go on.

Thumbs up!

gearhead1951
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by gearhead1951 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:13 pm

A bit more wwork perhaps , but if you dismantle another gear box and salvage the high (1 to 1) Gear set you can attach the countershaft gear to the 5th gear as you were going to the shaft drive and use the mainshaft gear in mesh with that. you now have the rotation reversed and the shaft drive set a bit more outboard (you wont have to shift the engine as much)

It will require you create a mount for the bearings for the addditional gears (and a casing) but solves more problems than it creates !!

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old clunker
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by old clunker » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:29 am

Thanks for your latest project info Mouse, pity that the pics have suddenly disappeared! Keep us updated with the latest developments!
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by Zem » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:37 pm

Hey, cool project! I did not know yet that the fith gear was placed there!
This brings up some Ideas for one of my projects.

regards

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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by nanno » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:36 am

Best thing to happen to a Citroen Saxo, IMHO. They are sometimes referred to as "De Gaulle's final revenge" in Austria...

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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by womble » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:31 pm

Hey Mouse, followed some of your previous builds, normaly get stuck in and sort in incredable time , but this one gone very quiate, shame as Liking your thinking on this one, looked at simila with ford setup, as 5th gear presses on , so should not be a problem to graft a shaft to 5th gear ( i work in the transmition plant were this box used to be made) thing is ford 1.8 engine is phiscaly big, would like to have found a Dihatsu lump, but found more hens teath resently... Pug option next on the list.
So how's it going ? hit a wall? or makeing progress???

Womble

Mouse
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by Mouse » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:51 pm

Progress has been very slow. Mainly because of funds available for parts needed to make serious progress. I however have just made several ebay orders for things and bits and stuff.......

I have also obtained a copy of Tony Foales book on chassis design which I am currently wading through as I think this bike will need a home made single sided hub centred steering type front end. 8)
Kubota Z482 which is plodding on with unnerving reliability. Three years so far.
1900 Diesel Bike being rebuilt with better clutch control.

womble
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Re: Citroen Saxo Bike

Post by womble » Thu May 23, 2013 7:34 pm

Hell of a good book , I found it in the collage libery years ago , got it somewere too, would love to do a hubcenter steering front end, got pics in workshop todo a pushbike first, but never prgressed it ,lol, its a project in itself, looking forward to next installment :)

Womble

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